Author Topic: Not a question of pace but rhythm  (Read 9860 times)

Offline Thub

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 8
  • as it turns out, Tyrannosaurus can really haul ass
    • View Profile
Not a question of pace but rhythm
« on: October 11, 2008, 03:13:47 PM »
So , ya, I know I am probably asking a bit of an esoteric question, but how do I make my writing read less bouncy and more rollingly

Here is the problem I am having.  The zombies are dashing across the field or climbing the ladder or groping through the bars on the window to get at my hero, but instead of reading in the rolling tone that an ominous event should have, "it reads like you are following the bouncing ball in a sing along."  I would rather it had the long rolling build of a bowling ball smoothing curving toward a violent end than a game of ping pong.

Does anyone have a suggestion for taking the bounciness out of my writing?

Are there any tricks for rhythm?


The good news is, It makes for a really quick read.

Offline Shecky

  • Bartender
  • O. M. G.
  • ****
  • Posts: 34672
  • Feh.
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 03:16:09 PM »
Gonna need an example.
Official forum rules and precepts; please read: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.0.html

Quote from: Stanton Infeld
Well, if you couldn't do that with your bulls***, Leonard, I suspect the lad's impervious.

Offline Captain's Honor

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Somewhere between dreaming and destiny!
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 04:58:51 PM »
What about building suspense by writing down how your character feels during the chase?  Or even better take from the zombies point of view.  For example, on the chasing the field one.

They knew they had to get him.  It wasn't a matter of actual knowledge, but more of instinct.  Living flesh.  They hated living flesh.  To them, it was a disease, something to be eradicated at all costs.
"Legend isn’t about people; it is about the realism of a dream or higher ideal. It is about believing in something impossible, or highly improbable, and making it an actuality through faith and hard work."

Offline Thub

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 8
  • as it turns out, Tyrannosaurus can really haul ass
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 09:13:29 AM »
Here are a couple of examples.

Near the beggining:
     After a little work on my latest toy in the garage, a 1969 Camaro with more rust than paint, it was off to Jennet’s office in Midtown.
     Jennet Badeau is my favorite client.  Aside from the fact that she gives me more work than any other regular client in the city, always pays on time, and always leaves her door open and cracks a window whenever I am in her officeon account of my thing about closed in spaces, she is very easy on the eyes. 
     Jennet’s dark blond wavy hair is almost perpetually up in some kid of bun or pony tail which makes her look even younger than she is, and her smooth rounded features give her a serene, peaceful look with bright, warm brown eyes and little dimples when she smiles.  And at just over six feet with her heals on, she is taller than most of the men, judges and lawyers alike, she has to deal with.  For a tall woman she has curves that not even the most severe pantsuit could hide.  Basically she is a top notch babe, and yes, I totally have the hots for her.
     With Jennet, everything on the outside was camouflage.  I have only seen her in court a few times, and it is truly amazing…and a little scary.  That young, peaceful face and those cute little accessories mask the roid raging prize fighter out for blood that hides beneath.  I have seen her make full grown men cry without ever raising her voice, and I’m not talking about the dignified, quiet, single tear kind of crying either.  I mean men of success and power with dark spots on their two thousand dollar suites from all the tears, red faced with snot bubbles coming out of their nose from sobbing so hard. 
     The first time I saw her emotionally K.O. a defendant, it kind of spooked me.  Maybe spooked is the wrong word.  I was freaked out!  I had never seen anyone so totally tear a person down with such cold heartless precision before.   When the verdict was rendered, she walked right over to me and said “People ask me all the time if my name is French.  I tell them it’s Creole.  The truth is, I’m named after a horse.”  She shot me a dorky smile, made an “ooof” sound when she picked up a heavy file box, and just like that she was a regular person again instead of a vicious calculating megabitch.  As it turns out, she was telling the truth.  Seriously, I looked it up.  She's named after a horse.



Near the end
     The 327 v8 of my 69 Camaro RS rumbled down the streets of Washington DC parting the thick columns of steam billowing from sewer grates at 3:00 AM on a late November night and came to a stop in front of a building constructed on a grand scale with huge white columns and white stone that would have looked more appropriate in ancient Greece than in a modern American city.  As I pulled the key from the ignition, got out, and closed the door on 4000 pounds of barely contained American made power, the wind kicked up yesterdays discarded news paper blowing it past me as my leather jacket was caught by the same wind and began to wave around me like the short cape of a long forgotten but no less valiant knight.
     That was definitely how I would describe the scene if I somehow managed to live through the night which at the moment seemed fairly unlikely.  I probably wouldn’t mention the choking coughing sound the neglected pony car’s engine made for what seemed like an eternity after the door was closed.  There was no way I was going to tell anyone about the wind blowing over my mostly bare legs and through my workout shorts.  The very, very cold wind.  In retrospect I probably should have taken a couple of minutes to grab a few things before I took off on the 8 hour drive from Atlanta, but I hadn’t been thinking straight at the time.  A pair of pants and an uzi seem like a good idea considering what I was about to do.  Oh and some titanium chain mail would have been nice too, but those are the breaks
     I opened the majestic steed’s rusty trunk to take out the equipment I would need for a night of breaking, entering, snooping, and, if it couldn't be avoided, violence.  2 Mirrors,  1 huge Maglight flashlight with 4 D cell batteries, 5 Minimags, duct tape (it holds the world together), 30 of those flashing Braves LED pins they give out at the games, and one cut down Louisville Slugger. 
     As I turned toward the Smithsonian National Postal Museum, two more thought joined with the dozens of others racing through my mind.  Smithsonian National Postal Museum, and for an interactive stamp collection, this place has way too many stairs.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 10:32:33 AM by Thub »

Offline Suilan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 03:46:15 PM »
OK, here it goes. Brace yourself.


   
Quote
After a little work on my latest toy in the garage, a 1969 Camaro with more rust than paint, it was off to Jennet’s office in Midtown.


1) Don't play the Hunt-for-the-verb game with the reader. In this sentence, the verb is the 21st word! It needs to be somewhere near the beginning. (Mark Twain used to make fun of the German language for being "impolite to their verbs" by putting them last in subordinate sentences...)


2) Put the action into verbs. NOT "a little work" but "He/I worked"

(-ing phrases aren't the solution here. They can be useful occasionally, but be aware that they make the described activity sound very minor. "After working on" does not sound much more "active" than "After a little work on.")


Possible revision: Until noon/For the next few hours I worked on my latest ...


3) Avoid impersonal expressions like: it was off to. Make the acting person subject of your sentence. Use strong, precise verbs.

Possible revision: ... then I cleaned myself up and hurried over to Jennet's office is stronger & more precise than "He walked over to Jennet's office."


Characters need to be seen acting. They can't do that if their actions are described in nouns, -ing phrases, or impersonal expressions starting with "it" or "there was."

Quote
Jennet Badeau is my favorite client.  Aside from the fact that she gives me more work than any other regular client in the city, always pays on time, and always leaves her door open and cracks a window whenever I am in her office on account of my thing about closed in spaces, she is very easy on the eyes.


4) "Aside from the fact that" -- Avoid empty set phrases like these. Lawyers might talk like this; writers shouldn't. The sentence loses no content whatsoever if you delete this phrase, but gains clarity and directness.

Same with: "on account of my thing about closed in spaces"

change to: because she knows I hate closed spaces.


5) Important actions or statements should never be buried in subordinate clauses, nor in long sentences (like here.) Give important ideas a short sentence on their own, so they can shine.

possible revision -- Oh, and she is very easy on the eyes.

 
Quote
Jennet’s dark blond wavy hair is almost perpetually up in some kid of bun or pony tail which makes her look even younger than she is, and her smooth rounded features give her a serene, peaceful look with bright, warm brown eyes and little dimples when she smiles.  And at just over six feet with her heals (heels) on, she is taller than most of the men, judges and lawyers alike, she has to deal with.  For a tall woman she has curves that not even the most severe pantsuit could hide.  Basically she is a top notch babe, and yes, I totally have the hots for her.


6) Get the details right! Two details about her description (first sentence) seem impossible to me. A bun makes a person look older, not younger. If she wears her hair in a bun, how can it be wavy? Imho, not even in a pony tail can it look wavy.

7) Don't use the name "Jennet's" when you can use the pronoun: Her.

8 ) Avoid too many adjectives, as in: dark blond wavy hair. Possible revisions: "Her wavy blond hair" (this order!) or "Her dark blond hair"

9) Sometimes, "is" is just the word you need, but description of a person or place can all too quickly sound passive/static, so try to liven it up by using stronger verb than "to be" such as "fell down to her shoulders" or "cascaded down" or "framed her oval face" or something like that.

(Warning: Do NOT replace ALL "to be" verbs with other verbs. The result can become quite unreadable. As with all things, it's the dosage that counts.)

10) Avoid expression like:  a little, kind of, almost, very. They weaken your sentences and sound like sloppy writing. Say what you mean, not what you "almost mean."

Quote
  She shot me a dorky smile, made an “ooof” sound when she picked up a heavy file box, and just like that she was a regular person again instead of a vicious calculating megabitch.


11) Tell things as they happen -- in correct order.

She first picks up the file box, then makes an oof sound, right? It sounds awkward the wrong way round.

12) "make an oof-sound"

three problems here: i) It sounds like elementary school writing (sorry. The rest doesn't, so it really is out of place.) Find a real English word for what you mean.

ii) Show, don't tell. Show us through description that the file box is heavy, not by telling us that it's heavy. She could sway or pant or whatever.

iii) The pov-character can't really know it's heavy. OK, it's a file box, but HE isn't experiencing the heavyness himself, so telling us it's heavy is also a glitch in point of view.

13) Tighten your prose. Be straightforward. Don't use five words when one can do the job. A verb is more powerful than a wordy construction where the action is hidden in a noun. Stephen King says about the process of revising (quoted from memory), "Imagine you get $100 for each word you cut."

She shot me a dorky smile = She smiled.

14) Strong nouns are better than weak nouns. Strong nouns don't need adjectives. Adjectives weaken strong nouns. Megabitch is a strong noun. It should stand on its own.



Hope some of these suggestions help. Good luck with your revision!

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 10:18:58 PM by Suilan »
Style and structure are the essence of a book; great ideas are hogwash. -- Vladimir Nabokov

Have something to say, and say it as clearly as you can. Everything that can be said can be said clearly. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Offline Thub

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 8
  • as it turns out, Tyrannosaurus can really haul ass
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 09:26:38 AM »
Some of the points you have made are dead on.  I tend to use names repetitively even though I know I do that and try to hold back.  I use to much 30s-50s slang as in "It was off to" or "easy on the eyes" or "on account of".  I do have too much "a little, kind of, almost, and very."  I didn't describe the overflowing or bulging file box.  I just said file box and expected people to have an idea of the size and weight of it.  My interjections are crazy long.

I think you were tired of reading it by the second paragraph though which doesn't bode well for me.  You may have been looking for what could be considered wrong rather than what is wrong.  I know how that goes.  I have been guilty of it myself.  The last thing a teacher needs is a critic. 

Any suggestions on rhythm?  Are my sentences to short, to long, not complex enough, to complex, or not have enough evocative words to slow it down?  Is that just my rhythm, and I need to embrace my bouncy writing and tell a story about a professional tennis player who solves crimes?  Yes I am joking at the end there.  My guy would play basketball.  Ooh or ping pong.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 09:31:53 AM by Thub »

Offline Suilan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2008, 10:27:51 AM »
Sorry, I didn't say it explicitly, but I was trying to answer your original question "How to make my writing less bouncy." All my suggestions, except 6 and 12 perhaps, were written with that in mind.

(So I would argue that it's not an esoteric question at all, but one of craft.)

Taking care of these things will help with the rhythm. You do have an eye for interesting details, paragraph structure, and you dish out information in chewable bits, not dumping them on the reader, so it bodes well.  :)

There are many things I like about your writing (e.g. your use of vivid detail, such as: more rust than paint, or comments like: I was named after a horse -- laconic and intriguing) but you didn't ask for a critique, only for comments on what might be wrong with your rhythm, so that's what I commented on.  ;)

You might want to check out a guide on line editing or improving your style or writing for clarity at the library. There's some useful advice here (starting with #12) -- http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk5.html#13

Quote
I think you were tired of reading it by the second paragraph

Since commenting on the first part took me an hour, it doesn't have anything to do with being tired of reading.

It was also Stephen King (I think) who said: First drafts are crap. They're supposed to be.

So that shouldn't discourage you. A first draft should get the story down, no matter how bouncy or faulty the prose. Don't compare it to published works. Every writer, no matter how experienced, needs to revise their manuscript.

Thing is, the more effortless (smooth, less bouncy) a text appears to the reader, the more effort the writer put into it.

Regarding sentence length, you do vary it sufficiently, imo. Some sentences will be shorter once you've edited out some of the adjectives or expressions like "kind of" or "aside from the fact that." Other sentences (like the first) will appear shorter if you put the verb in earlier.

Good luck!


P.S.

Quote
You may have been looking for what could be considered wrong rather than what is wrong.


I assure you I wasn't. I'm not a teacher but a writer, translator, and linguist. Still, everything I said was a suggestion. There's no such thing as an objective opinion.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:49:54 AM by Suilan »
Style and structure are the essence of a book; great ideas are hogwash. -- Vladimir Nabokov

Have something to say, and say it as clearly as you can. Everything that can be said can be said clearly. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Offline Thub

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 8
  • as it turns out, Tyrannosaurus can really haul ass
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 07:00:06 AM »

Since commenting on the first part took me an hour, it doesn't have anything to do with being tired of reading.


This is the funniest thing I have seen in a while.

Honestly I love it.  I sat here and laughed for maybe a minute straight.  I just realized you may not have meant it as a joke, but it's pretty funny in the right context.  I mean... it's 2 sentences long.. granted.. one of those is a very long sentence, but if it takes an hour to point out all of the things wrong with 2 sentences, I am in pretty deep. 

It occurs to me that you may have meant section instead of paragraph.  That's not nearly as bad.  If you really meant paragraph, please don't tell me...for my sake.

I do appreciate your comments.  I didn't mean teacher in the sense that you are Prof. Suilan.  I mean teacher as in a person who is trying to teach me something. 

Thanks again.  I will check out that site.  Do you, or anyone else for that matter, have any books to recommend?  I have read Jim Butchers live journal about writing fiction and should probably go back and read it again; because, I know I made some mistakes he warns readers about.

Offline Suilan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 07:34:01 PM »
I'm happy to have made you so happy, even if only for a minute.  ;D

What I meant by first part: everything under "near the beginning" in your post October 12, 2008, 04:13:29 AM

(Second part = everything under "near the end" in that post.)

So what took me in hour was analyzing the prose of the first five paragraphs for "bouncyness" and writing comments 1-14 in post October 12, 2008, 10:46:15 AM. BTW, I'm not on a mission here, or trying to teach you. (Teachers only teach because they get paid for it.) You asked a question, I tried to answer it. So even if you don't agree on all points, experimenting  a little can't hurt, eh? If you don't like the result, you can always change it back.


Books on revising & improving voice/style

Renni Browne & Dave King -- Self-Editing for Fiction Writers
Noah Lukeman -- The First Five Pages
Monica Wood -- Description
Constance Hale -- Sin and Syntax: How to Craft Wickedly Effective Prose



« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 07:43:27 PM by Suilan »
Style and structure are the essence of a book; great ideas are hogwash. -- Vladimir Nabokov

Have something to say, and say it as clearly as you can. Everything that can be said can be said clearly. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Offline Suilan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 07:10:01 AM »
Another great book:

Noah Lukeman -- A Dash of Style

Now, it says it's about "The Art and Mastery of Punctuation"  but Lukeman takes a creative approach that's unlike any book on punctuation. He has the novelist in mind, not non-fiction writers. The book is really about writing clear, smooth sentences.
Style and structure are the essence of a book; great ideas are hogwash. -- Vladimir Nabokov

Have something to say, and say it as clearly as you can. Everything that can be said can be said clearly. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Offline Kathleen Dante

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • Kathleen Dante | Erotic Romance Author
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2008, 01:28:10 PM »
The voice here reminds me of detective noir pulp, which I don't mind. The problem I see is your tendency toward run-on, overly complicated sentences. For example:

     The 327 v8 of my 69 Camaro RS rumbled down the streets of Washington DC parting the thick columns of steam billowing from sewer grates at 3:00 AM on a late November night and came to a stop in front of a building constructed on a grand scale with huge white columns and white stone that would have looked more appropriate in ancient Greece than in a modern American city.

First problem, it's confusing; from what's written, the V8 is what parts the columns of steam and comes to a stop before the building. Second, this is one long run-on sentence completely devoid of any punctuation besides the period at the end. It would be clearer broken it up into two sentences:

     My '69 Camaro RS rumbled down the streets of Washington, DC, at 3:00 AM, parting the thick columns of steam billowing from sewer grates. We came to a stop in front of a building constructed on a grand scale: huge white columns and white stone that would have looked more appropriate in ancient Greece than in a modern American city.

Why those changes? The bit about the V8 engine was excessive detail that distracts the reader. The time bit was moved for clarity (i.e., 3:00 AM is when he drove through DC, not when the sewer grates are scheduled to release steam). Additional punctuation was also added for clarity.

One thing I didn't get when reading your samples, though, is emotional engagement. The writing is breezy and detached--emotionally distant. Now, I don't expect your character to wear his heart on his sleeve, but even Harry Dresden gulps or has his instincts "screaming at [him] to run." The second sample, which you say is near the end, should have rising tension; it's supposed to be building up to an ominous event. He should be fearful of what's at stake, which would remind the reader of why they should care about your character and fear his failure and death. This is missing. You're not engaging your reader. The writing is still breezy: nothing to see here; move along.

Also, you provide conflicting signals: "if I somehow managed to live through the night which at the moment seemed fairly unlikely" and "the equipment I would need for a night of breaking, entering, snooping, and, if it couldn't be avoided, violence." So in the previous paragraph, he expects to die, yet later on, he hints that violence could be avoided. Unless he's set to commit nonviolent suicide, the text is in direct contradiction of itself.
DREAMWALKER - Available now from Berkley Heat
ENDANGERED - Available now from Berkley Heat
http://www.kathleendante.com

Offline Thub

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 8
  • as it turns out, Tyrannosaurus can really haul ass
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 02:03:22 PM »
The voice here reminds me of detective noir pulp, which I don't mind. The problem I see is your tendency toward run-on, overly complicated sentences. For example:

First problem, it's confusing; from what's written, the V8 is what parts the columns of steam and comes to a stop before the building. Second, this is one long run-on sentence completely devoid of any punctuation besides the period at the end. It would be clearer broken it up into two sentences:

     My '69 Camaro RS rumbled down the streets of Washington, DC, at 3:00 AM, parting the thick columns of steam billowing from sewer grates. We came to a stop in front of a building constructed on a grand scale: huge white columns and white stone that would have looked more appropriate in ancient Greece than in a modern American city.

Why those changes? The bit about the V8 engine was excessive detail that distracts the reader. The time bit was moved for clarity (i.e., 3:00 AM is when he drove through DC, not when the sewer grates are scheduled to release steam). Additional punctuation was also added for clarity.

One thing I didn't get when reading your samples, though, is emotional engagement. The writing is breezy and detached--emotionally distant. Now, I don't expect your character to wear his heart on his sleeve, but even Harry Dresden gulps or has his instincts "screaming at [him] to run." The second sample, which you say is near the end, should have rising tension; it's supposed to be building up to an ominous event. He should be fearful of what's at stake, which would remind the reader of why they should care about your character and fear his failure and death. This is missing. You're not engaging your reader. The writing is still breezy: nothing to see here; move along.

Also, you provide conflicting signals: "if I somehow managed to live through the night which at the moment seemed fairly unlikely" and "the equipment I would need for a night of breaking, entering, snooping, and, if it couldn't be avoided, violence." So in the previous paragraph, he expects to die, yet later on, he hints that violence could be avoided. Unless he's set to commit nonviolent suicide, the text is in direct contradiction of itself.

I know I am taking a long time replying here, but You are wrong about that sentence being a run-on.  It isn't.  I don't know what you think this colon is doing in the middle of "grand scale: huge white columns", but it isn't doing the grammar of the sentence any favors.  Also, needlessly adding commas to a sentence is the way to not make it grammatically correct.  I understand that, from time to time, you may need to interject something or join two complete sentences together, and commas can be used to slow down a sentence, for style's sake.  Randomly throwing commas at a sentence because it is long, is bad and wrong.  It would be different if I had wanted the reader to pause while reading my extremely long sentence.  I don't.  If you will read the sentence again, you may notice that there is one subject. I could have made several sentences out of that one, but I wanted a single image of a specific car doing two specific things at a specific time in a specific place.  I didn't want an image of a car, place, time, and action separately.  I know it's long. 

You are right about the engine parting the steam. I suppose I could make the sentence even longer, or I could split it into a separate sentence about rumbling V8s.  I could trust that the read is smart enough to assume the character hasn't removed the engine from his Camero and is somehow levitating it through the streets of DC.  If I had writen "The hard steel handle of my sword, heated by the intensity of my rage, burned my hands as it sliced through my opponents.", would you have assumed it was the handle of my sword that was slicing through my opponents?

Sewer grates are not "scheduled to release steam."  The air is cold.  The water underground is significantly warmer than the air.  It steams, and that steam billows.  Technically it isn't even steam.  It's vapor, but I figured "...parting the columns of visible water vapor..." was a bit unwieldy.

Quote
One thing I didn't get when reading your samples, though, is emotional engagement.
Even Dresden from time to time becomes oddly detached.  When the time for being scared or angry is over. it is time to get to work.  Dresden is the same way after being tortured nearly to death and having mouse snap the neck of Liver Spots.  He is formulating a plan of attack and preparing to do battle with the forces of evil.  Granted my character has a maglight and a bat instead of a staff and a 65 million year old zombie beast, but it's the same basic point in the story.  Belive me he has reacted plenty at this point.

Quote
Also, you provide conflicting signals: "if I somehow managed to live through the night which at the moment seemed fairly unlikely" and "the equipment I would need for a night of breaking, entering, snooping, and, if it couldn't be avoided, violence." So in the previous paragraph, he expects to die, yet later on, he hints that violence could be avoided. Unless he's set to commit nonviolent suicide, the text is in direct contradiction of itself.

He will live through the night if he can avoid violence.  It doesn't look likely that he will be able to.  In the list of things he would have preferred he have brought with him he mentioned an Uzi and some titanium chainmail.  What he has is a cut down Louisville Slugger and a leather jacket.  I thought that conveyed the desperation of his equipment situation and the degree to which he was the underdog.  I didn't think rementioning how unlikely it was for him to survive was necessary.  If you knew what he was up against, this would really be a non-issue.  I know you don't know the bad guy or what he is up against so here is the short version.  He is going into an unfamiliar building in which his opponent has had ample time to set up.  If the bad guy catches the hero, he will shoot, stab, and/or explode him into tiny unidentifiable little bits, and he is trained to do so.  The hero has a short piece of wood and some mag lights.  Trust me.  The situation is desperate.

Offline Suilan

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2008, 01:09:26 PM »
The sentence starts with 327 V8 of my 69 Camaro RS, then mentions: the streets of Washington DC; thick columns of steam; sewer grates; late November night; a stop; a building; a grand scale; huge white columns; white stone; ancient Greece; a modern American city.

So, err, what exactly is this sentence about? One sentence has room enough for one idea / topic.

BTW, you asked what could be done about the rhythm of your prose, and Kathleen answered (as I did earlier) by describing her reaction to it. It's called "constructive critique." What you do with it is entirely up to you. Try to make the most out of the feedback you get, not reject it out of hand. From experience I know that as a beginning writer, your first reaction to critique is always to defend what you have written, but there's no need to. You will NOT be able to persuade the reviewer to change his opinion of your text, and that shouldn't be your goal anyway. (BTW, it's an opinion of your text, not of you as a person. )

I know it's hard, but you need to take a step backward and try to see WHY the reviewer(s) would think so, and come to your own conclusion about how you could use this to improve your writing. If you don't, you are wasting an important opportunity.


http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/feature8.html


(There's loads of other useful advice on this website.)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 01:22:32 PM by Suilan »
Style and structure are the essence of a book; great ideas are hogwash. -- Vladimir Nabokov

Have something to say, and say it as clearly as you can. Everything that can be said can be said clearly. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Offline meg_evonne

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5264
  • With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony
    • View Profile
Re: Not a question of pace but rhythm
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 06:27:45 PM »
Renni Browne & Dave King -- Self-Editing for Fiction Writers
--haven't read the others Suilan mentions but this one is incredible. Memorize it.  Check out the section on white space also and the section on expository vs dialog. 

I once peeled apart JB's tight descriptive writing style.  I'll try to find the link. It'll raise your eyebrows.  http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,7225.0.html

Cardinal Rule: Apparently no sentence should be longer than three lines of typing. 

Finally, (<-- word used tongue in cheek, as you read the reference above there should be few to nil adverbs with -ly. As one author told me, if you are using -ly, you are probably using the wrong verb.  And that goes back to the JB referenced above.)  Oh and remove all 'almosts', 'verys', & 'justs'. You really have to break up that exposition there--it's really heavy, especially in action scenes. That's that writer's nimenis (sp) of tell vs show.   Example below:

"That was definitely how I would describe the scene if I somehow managed to live through the night which at the moment seemed fairly unlikely."---Hey, count the 44 so beats, syllables!  No wonder you noticed it was off...    economy of word arrangement, needed there.

VS "If I lived through the night, unlikely, that's how I'd describe it." cut beats equals  easier to read, eye & mind of reader moves faster, increases the interest & the tension in a scene.

"The first time I saw her emotionally K.O. a defendant, it kind of spooked me." (tip, you are the writer here, never 'kind of'-- is he or isn't he?) vs "She wrung the defendant's balls off--ouch."  okay crude but same point.   Although I love 'emotionally K.O. a defendant' its wrapped up in too much stuff.  Here's the kind of questions you need to ask for this single question, 'Is first time crucial?' or 'Is this a warning to someone?', in which case first time isn't needed or 'Is him being spooked the important part?' 

You really have to get that deep into your sentences and rip out what's extra, un-needed, or what you can let the reader figure out themselves.  My crude one has an automatic warning the reader will assume AND assumed 'first time' was un-necessary to the intent of the sentence.

Excercise to try:  Take one of your sections above and edit it to 1/3 the current length.  To do it, you'll have to let the reader put in their interpretation & you'll ask those questions about what is most important--the rest is 90% fluff.  (okay, maybe not fluff--but more than likely un-necessary.) 

If you try the excercise post it and see what kind of responses you get back on the new version. 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 06:36:32 PM by meg_evonne »
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
Photo from Avatar.com by the Domestic Goddess