Firearms - writers - resources

[InfernoMDM]

Ok this is my second post after my introduction.  First let me say this is my major enjoyment in my life, and I know next to nothing compared to others when it comes to this subject. 

The problem - Writers will always always fuck up things they don't know.  No matter what they do or hard they research topics its gonna happen.  The Dresden Files have a few slip ups, and for instance as engrained as some characters are to weapons a few statments make gun owners mildly cringe.  Now that said its part of a culture thing, and I don't expect Mr. Butcher or anyone else who isn't balls deep in firearms to catch onto everything.  It would be like me trying to write a story about web design....

The solution - First most of you that write will either know your subject, create something new, or research.  Firearms are the damn hardest thing to research and understand.  There is science out that will give you most of the answers, and people who will know a great deal.  Two major problems seem to happen.  Most people who believe they know firearms either back up there evidence with opinions, emotional responses, and out dated information.  There are many forums dedicated to firearms, guns, and military but few hold a great deal of knowledge.  Although you will get the right answer some where in a reply to a question it might be filled in.

I will list a forum for you guys that will have people that are highly knowledgeable, and a few others for you to look at(you can view but they close off industry people)  So you can get answers from cops, to military, and about every weapon.  Just so you know post a introduction in "The crusader Hall" first before you ask your question.  When you post in the forum state why your need the information (IE I am writing a book and would like to know....).  We have a guy on the forum that helps movies get more accurate production, mil, LE, firearms instructors,etc etc.

www.lightfighter.net - Join and ask questions

www.10-8forums.com - Read only, but full of great info.

This is why its becoming more important for some authors.  Most people who shot, soldiers(who probably read more books to pass the time then anything else) do pay attention.  We as a culture nearly gag when we here someone flip the safety on a glock.  Pull out a 45 ACP and blow someone away, actually to pieces away, not just injured/dead.  Contrary to popular belief case studies, science, and ballistics testing show that the difference between a 9mm 40 and 45 are almost negliable.  Also a pistol is a pistol, not a rifle.  I have read stuff from the guns can't fire underwater (the expert in the book stated fictionally of course), to people not know that shooting through a windshild actually makes the bullet turn direction 5-10 degrees maybe more.  FYI contrary to Mythbusters most handguns will repeatedly shoot underwater.  However the 1911 has a odd thing where the shell comes out of the chamber and then goes right back in backwards.  Seen that myself on a two 1911s, and had a magainze author  report the same thing.  Might not seem like anything worth knowing, but maybe your Hero jumped in the water etc with a pistol etc.  You can ask if its possible.

Ask these guys if you write a story and you want a bullet to do something, or know about how silencers work, sound, or even act.  Granted most people here are probably more scifi oriented, but if your gonna do the gun thing, and you do it write you will get a large respect from people who shoot, cops, military etc.  We tell people about books more then I think any other run of the mill community seems to, short of book clubs.  Long shitty hours board to tears, or hell stuck in a bunker gets you reading anything.

Anyways sorry for the rant, but if you need help on subjects like that start there, and although I started at thehighroad.org peoples biest and knowledge about which is best etc seems to be more about how they feel, then reality.  Hell you might learn something interesting on the side.

[InfernoMDM]

If you also have any questions, I will either direct you to the right resource, or explain it to you as well on here if I am around.

[Kris_W]

Thanks for web site address. I’ll have a look at it.

One of the best tools a writer can have is an index box of contacts. Collect contact information from people with expertise in a wide range of things. Consistently talk with other people everywhere and try to spend more time listening than talking.

It’s a good habit to get into and it’s a nice way to meet folks, since most people love to talk about their expertise. Besides, it gives a writer an excuse to get into a lot of really interesting discussions (ok, a lot of very strange conversations, too).

It’s also not a bad idea to send greetings of some sort out to the contacts at least once a year. Maybe include a brief update on whatever is the current Work In Progress. Gaining and maintaining contacts is definitely worth the effort.

[Yeratel]

There are tons of forums out on the Internet dealing with guns, ammo, explosives, and pyrotechnics. Some of the info is interesting, and some of it is questionable. The best resource a writer who wants to add accurate technical details on something like firearms can have is a knowledgeable friend to proofread the tech stuff. Most book editors are based in places like New York or Chicago, which have the most restrictive gun laws in the United States, and it's unlikely anyone working there would catch any errors related to gun handling.

[InfernoMDM]

I totally agree angel, but contrary to popular belief many people who "know" firearms really don't.  I have talked to people who own gun stores and there biest are so diverse and opinions so skewd they have no idea what they are talking about.  It's like going to a mechanic and haveing them say go buy a blue bettle, because its the easiest thing for him to repair.  To bad you have a family the size of Micheal.

The two sites I provided  for instance has a guy named DocGKR (forgot his real name).  He is a indpendant ballistics testing company and explains things in a normal fashion, but gives you data and science on bullets etc.

If you ask most gun enthusists whats more powerful a 357 Magnum, or a 9mm you will end up with most of the responses being the 357 being much much strong.  In actuality the penetration of both rounds could be the same.  Most 9mm self defense ammo is traveling the same speed as a 357, almost the same wight, and they are the same diamiter round .355ish.

All I am saying is check your guy, and make sure he really knows what hes talking about.

[Yeratel]

Really, the best way to get a feel for what a particular gun is like, and what it can do, is to buy or borrow one and actually shoot it. In the case of something like a .357 Magnum versus a 9 millimeter Luger, firing them side by side makes it pretty clear that the Magnum has more blast and kick at the shooter's end, and firing them into a target like soft clay or firm gelatin shows pretty clearly what it's like at the receiving end. A 9 mm will penetrate deeply, particularly with military style full metal jacket bullets, while the expanding bullets used in most .357 Magnums transfer more energy to the target and blow bigger holes out the back side.  With expanding bullets of comparable weights, a 9mm is more comparable to a .38 Special. I own and shoot handguns in all three calibres, and reload my own ammunition. Knowledgeable opinions are valuable, if that's all a writer has to go on, but there's still no real substitute for actual personal experience.  Very few writers, for example, ever note that firing a handgun in the .357 Magnum class indoors, without serious ear protection, will leave your ears ringing for hours afterwards, and seriously affect your hearing sensitivity.

[InfernoMDM]

I totally agree people should experince as much as they can.  However experience doesn't always create understanding or knowledge.  I am not sure if it was the Dresden files, since I have heard the story, but 3 blind men can touch a elephant.  Getting experts to go hand in hand always seems to make things better.  Most of your points are valid, with a few notable things.

A sub compact with 9mm +P or +P+ (self defense load) traveling at the same speed, and having nearly the same weight as a 357 magnum will do the same damage, provided barrel lengths of the firearm are comparable.  13.8(9mm)vs 14.4(357) really is negliable differnce when comparing same speed to weight rounds. 

I will try to post some photos of of bare gel tests as well, if anyone asks for them.  People lie about bullets to make them look better then they are.  Glock created the 45 G.A.P. round to compete with 45 and 40 cal, but no noticeable usefulness came from the round.  If you ask a Glock fan or look just at the GAP propaganda you get a different story.

My favorite is the 5.7 round you see in stargate weapons(P-90).  If you compare the round to a armor piercing 9mm you get better results from the 9mm.  However people to this day thing its the best thing because of specific tests, instead of a all around study done a few years after the round came out. 

I am not saying go to a forum/resource for information on how a gun fires, if you can get hands on experience.  Many people can't tell you how it feels to carry a gun day in and day out from going to the range.  The majority of people know squat about ballistics, who makes subsonic ammo for a 308.  Hell most people don't live in states that allow you to shoot a sub machinegun unless your LE.  These things help out.



More resources from the FBI on down.  I should have done this yesterday.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/  Not the best link but has case studies about cops, shootings and other such info. 
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php Quick list of pistol rounds and FBI gel test.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm  Great sight covers pistols to rifles, diagrams stats, and all the science.  Also explains why one guy can shoot a AR-15 and get a kill with 3 rounds, and then another guy can get the same point of impacts and have to him someone 7+ times.  Very Very science. 

Most of this info comes in a more destilled form in the forums I provided, by the experts that wrote the science.

[InfernoMDM]

Another resource I almost forgot.  This is a website with manuals for lots of guns, just read the info and it tells you how to get on and see, they have the password protection to prevent hot linking.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/

[Roaram]

So, first things first, I want to say I agree with the research/experience crowd. I will say I was surprised the one time I fired a carbon fiber or watever its called lightwieght .22 and felt it almost kick out of my hand when the heavy more powerfull pistol didn't. shocked. See, I never really thought about the wieght to kick ratio before I fired a little gun that kicked more than I thought it should. and as for reaserch on the science, if you have a character shoot a vampire with a 50 caliber machine gattling whatever gun, and the vampire heals, I think its important to know that you just had a vampire stitch most of its body mass back together all lickety split. so when he got hit by the car later he could just keep running you know?

as for acctual gun knolledge, I gotta say, other than your safty on a gun without a safty, keep it simple. everyone thinks they know something they don't, or know so much that every detail you add is just adding to the list of what you're doing wrong. so minimise it, and let joe shmoe think he knows his assault rifels, and let the experts agree you didn't give them enough ammo to shooot your story full of holes

[InfernoMDM]

This info isn't for detail as much as getting the basics straight.  I have read books that talk about the modern M-4 going full auto in the hands of a grunt.  Grunt's don't get full auto M-4's and they are exteremly rare.  The author was going back to Vietnam knowledge.  Also other people have spent the time to describe a glock, and called it a HK USP. 

If you know nothing, and still want to put something in, all I am saying is get your basics.  Considering I have read 20+ books in 2 months well over 300-400 pages, and I am 1 airman among many, these things tend to get us reading or dumping a book.  I dumped a book that was recomended because it was "like the dresden files" in the first 40 pages due to issues like this on a few different topics. 

Like I said only a resource/tool to help.

[Roaram]

I see where your coming from and agree, ineferno. I was just saying that if a writer IS skipping the basic research, like the type of gun is uninportant, saying "handgun" or "pistol" is better than saying Glock, plus serial number or watever. Or say standerd issue rifel, not make and model. that way you don't trip yourself up, and don,t irritate readers who know more than you.

[InfernoMDM]

Amen

[THETA]

I've never had to write anything about firearms yet, but will probably have to in the near future, so thanks for the heads up.  My dads in the military and has to review these software programs that outline all the new procedures and firearms care, maintenance, and types, every few months.  It's boring as arse to slog through, but i can manage for the sake of true literature.

I think finding historical inaccuracies, especially in period pieces are more irksome than technology mishaps.

[Thub]

I see where your coming from and agree, ineferno. I was just saying that if a writer IS skipping the basic research, like the type of gun is uninportant, saying "handgun" or "pistol" is better than saying Glock, plus serial number or watever. Or say standerd issue rifel, not make and model. that way you don't trip yourself up, and don,t irritate readers who know more than you.

This is true, but I get a big smile on my face when I read "He drew his custome Smith & Wesson 1911 45 and sent four rounds through the window to discourage anyone out who might have been considering coming in through the same window." or "her Glock 20 went through the security door like it was made of warm butter."

It's difficult to mess up keeping it generic, but you won't invoke any of the imagry that goes with the specific gun either.  The 1911 is an icon in the gun world.  It's nearly a century old and still wildly popular.  It's been through wars.  It is the "why use a scalpel when a hammer will do?" gun.  "He pulled out his gun..." Just doesn't evoke the same imagery.

The other side of that is that probably way less than half of the people reading your book will have a clue what it is, but if you give it enough weight they will at least know it is important.  I don't know exactly what "Vascular Extracardiac thrombosis" is, but I am pretty sure it is not good.  So I do not want that, but a "1967 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 with a 428 big block V8" has a hell of a lot more appeal to me than "a car."

[Mitchell]

You can take a 2 day shooting course for just about $450 from a lot of shooting schools.

If you want to write about firearms, nothing is better than first hand experience with them.