Author Topic: Enchanting guns and other tech items?  (Read 23363 times)

Offline MacsNewBrew

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2008, 02:57:13 AM »
Respectfully, I think you're taking it a bit too far. Murphy's
(click to show/hide)
is a fairly complex firearm. So are the weapons used by
(click to show/hide)
, and these seem to hold up well to a whole lot of mojo moving around. I only think it would start to be a problem one you started throwing in electronics, a la the XM-29, then things get dicey. Purely mechanical seems to be pretty safe. I know Harry's VW averages an issue once every eight days, but (IMHO) electronics are the main factor. Electrically, you cannot get much simpler than an incandescant bulb. Harry is amazed that Mac keeps ceiling fans running. The electrical system of a Bug is way more complicated than either. All that said, even WWI tech can be suspect. If I were a wizard, you could not get me within 50 meters of a proximity fuse. Harry has known the time in the books, so I suspect that he has a watch or clock around somewhere, probably spring driven.
If I were DMing, mechanical items would be safe, but iPhones could be used as incendiary devices.  ;D
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Offline Lanodantheon

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 03:11:48 AM »
I agree, mechanical devices don't seem to bother Harry. I think the cut off is Electricity. However, the
(click to show/hide)
was never used by Harry personally. If he had he probably would have made the magazine gang-fire.

But, remember that when Harry kills a computer he gets smoke from them. That smells to me like a power supply/cooling problem that is going wrong. Everything in TDF is plausible and even magic has some basis in reality.

I think iPhone incendiary is taking it a bit too far. IMHO I think an iPhone would just smoke and become your new paper weight.
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Offline MacsNewBrew

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 04:28:09 AM »
Murphy's toy has been around at least one major Magical slugfest, so I would think it is safe in the hands of a wizard. The way I see it, is if his .44 doesn't cook off all six rounds at once, shoved in his pocket during the throw-down with
(click to show/hide)
(DB spoiler), then a 30 round mag is just as unlikely. That little party had to have more mojo in the air than anything to this point in the series. It would not be a matter of quantity in this case, but of complexity. The self-contained cartridge is not complex: just container (casing), cap (bullet), powder, and the cap, which happens to produce a very small explosion when subjected to enough physical force/pressure.

The way my mind works, assumes that the murphionic field works like EM fields, EM radiation, or particle radiation. If you expose one or fifty forks to the same level of radiation the solitary fork will have the the same level of radiation as one of the fifty. When Harry walks into a room with a single light bulb it sometimes goes out. That does not mean that if he walks into a room with 500 light bulbs every one always go out. He has been in enough public places that I think my theory holds water. Magic has to obey the laws of physics, as Harry would say. I could be wrong about the rules as Jim sees them--after all I am not him, but this is the conclusion I've come to (keeping in mind all of the tech failures we've seen {that I can remember} have had an electromagnetic component to them).

I think iPhone incendiary is taking it a bit too far. IMHO I think an iPhone would just smoke and become your new paper weight.
Mine has gotten uncomfortable to the touch on long flights (when watching a movie), but I was kind of making a point without meaning literally bursting into flames. I tend to forget that my typing lacks inflection sometimes.  :o

[EDIT here down] Ok, going back to usefulness I do not think a two handed firearm would be practical to a wizard during a fight. You got to have a hand ready to throw around energy or bring up your defenses. As far as Harry's reluctance to pick up an automatic, I think that is just Harry being paranoid, but "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisable deamon about to eat your face."
Going back to an earlier post, I could see and possibly accept someone enchanting a bullet (projectile only) much the same way Harry uses his silver rings. That would be some hefty work to throw away, unless the enchantment is attached to another simple item which is designed to pass on the enchantment to other items through a less involved method before charging. Runes of sigils on the barrel would act as a release trigger, much the same way Harry triggers his rings--he doesn't have to be uber-precise on impact time. This method does seem like a kind of copout.
Thinking about it, if you want your 30 round cap .22LR to pack as much punch as a .729 Jongmans with Hydro-shok, of course (a 110lb rifle with "brutal" recoil), you better work your butt off on 30 enchantments, strap them on your shoes (think 1980's 'Roos shoes), and go run a marathon or three.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 05:18:04 AM by MacsNewBrew »
another one of those discussions about Heaven and God and the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.

Offline Diebdazar

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2008, 11:06:42 PM »
*nods* in the later books it does seem limited, mostly, to electronic items.

But in the early books of the series we have various automatic weapons having trouble when wielded near magic. . . most noticeable in storm front I think

Offline MacsNewBrew

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 02:26:19 AM »
I need to go back and reread that one I think..
Another though on the subject, specifically the kenetically charged ammo: A possible work around to having to enchant every single bullet would be to enchant a 2 or three pound block of lead (or an alloy of lead and silver), throw it in the trunk for 6-18 months, melt some shavings and pour into a mould for home reloaders like the one Murphy used in Fool Moon.
another one of those discussions about Heaven and God and the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.

Offline strangething

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2008, 12:22:12 AM »
Magical computers just can't work. Not because "It is technology, therefore it cannot work around a Wizard" but because of the magnetics. I've honestly thought about telling you you would need to Macguyver a motherboard and make computer components that run on magic and you would need to be a sensitive, but in the end it comes down to Magnetics. The Hardware of a PC can be duplicated, but the software cannot be. Wizards wipe magnetic storage devices and therefore could not be in the vicinity of a normal hard drive let alone tiny magnetic devices such as Processors with BIOS on them. Without the ability to store and access information, a computer cannot work. Therefore, no magic computers.

Although if I were a wizard I would just get a really long extension cord and go through a lot of mice and keyboards if not make a keyboard out of a typewriter and Macguyver a Trackball.

Put the CPU in a Faraday cage, as well as the magic circle. A 60's vintage dumb terminal just might hold up better than a modern mouse and keyboard. Our hypothetical technomancer would have to be Unix geek. (Makes sense...)

Offline Stephen

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 10:44:26 AM »
We know normal magic has a murphonic effect but not that necro magic does nor that fae magic or any other nevernever magic does.
So a gun made and enchanted by the troll smiths (or dwalves, etc if they exist) 'might' resist the murphonic effect better than mundane materials.
If the fae can make a universal unbinding then they maybe able to make a specific murphonic block (which seems like a bad luck curse).
If a gun was your 'holy item' and venerated by many would the collective faith magic embued in the gun cause it to always work when needed, shoot straight, hit well, etc.
As you can see my idea would be to play the advantages of atypical magic forms of which there has been only minor mentions (and there are enough gun enthusiasts to make up a cult).
Stephen

Offline TheMouse

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2008, 03:27:19 PM »
A faerie gun might resist the effects, but that begs the question as to whether such a thing would exist. The Sidhe seem to go for anachronistic arms and armour when it comes time to throw down. The same seems to be true for the common faeries. You'd need an odd confluence of events to produce a faerie crafted gun.

Offline MacsNewBrew

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 04:17:34 AM »
A faerie gun might resist the effects, but that begs the question as to whether such a thing would exist. The Sidhe seem to go for anachronistic arms and armour when it comes time to throw down. The same seems to be true for the common faeries. You'd need an odd confluence of events to produce a faerie crafted gun.

Also, steel, or Cold Iron is not something the fae would touch with a ten foot pole. I'm not saying that the theoretical firearm couldn't be made of other stuff (what are their swords made of again), but it would not be something you could just get made without a very heafty price------nevermind, that opens some interesting options for character background and creation.

We know normal magic has a murphonic effect but not that necro magic does nor that fae magic or any other nevernever magic does.
Dead Beat's plot development has the mule hiding the Word of Kemmler's location on a thumb drive so Cowl and the likes wouldn't screw him over. Didn't Butters have to put up a circle to get a GPS signal during the Darkhallow? I can't remember if we have seen fae magic around tech before...
I couldn't see a gun having so much veneration that it has a power of faith, unless it was the hypothetical M1 Garand that assinated Hitler. Even then, we would still be talking about a historical artifact, famous maybe, but not something that has a direct connection with peoples' faith.
another one of those discussions about Heaven and God and the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.

Offline Stephen

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 09:47:15 AM »
A faerie gun might resist the effects, but that begs the question as to whether such a thing would exist. The Sidhe seem to go for anachronistic arms and armour when it comes time to throw down. The same seems to be true for the common faeries. You'd need an odd confluence of events to produce a faerie crafted gun.
Oh I wasn't thinking the gun would be a fae idea but as Nic designed the anti-wizard manacles and presumably had troll-smiths manufacture them I was thinking some human would commission the fae (or other nevernever magic capable being) to manufacture the gun.
As an idea it seems entirely plausible but the issue of paying is a big unresolved thing (but some craftsbeing do interesting creations for the sheer challenge).
It also seems to me that one of the Summer/Winter knights would be interested in such a thing (most Summer knights are killed by the Winter knight and Winter knights are into killing) and we know Fix is willing to use guns and is mechanically minded.
Stephen

Offline Stephen

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2008, 10:13:50 AM »
Also, steel, or Cold Iron is not something the fae would touch with a ten foot pole.
But not all fae are anti iron/steel, Harry has said some are totally unconcerned about the stuff and usually in mythology that is the metal working crafters e.g. toll smiths being one example.

I'm not saying that the theoretical firearm couldn't be made of other stuff (what are their swords made of again), but it would not be something you could just get made without a very heafty price
For a 'normal' human sure, unless the smith was interested in the challenge, but if the Winter or Summer Knight ordered it or one of the people requested to act as agents for the courts demanded/requested one for their mission their might be no cost.

Dead Beat's plot development has the mule hiding the Word of Kemmler's location on a thumb drive so Cowl and the likes wouldn't screw him over. Didn't Butters have to put up a circle to get a GPS signal during the Darkhallow?
Yes but it was Grevane not Cowl that made the deal and its not clear from that example that necro does cause murphonic issues just that the guy believed it would act as a deterent and that would be based on info he had about normal magic rather than necro.
Yes but its also not clear that raising the spirits used the necro magic (the stuff Harry describes as cold) rather than typical magic in a necromantic act.

I can't remember if we have seen fae magic around tech before...
In Summer Night, first in the dead Summer Knight's home (minor time), but also when Harry and Murphy when up against the Veggy construct (major time - chainsaw). When Lea visited Harry at his office, probably other times. Still partly speculative an idea though.

I couldn't see a gun having so much veneration that it has a power of faith, unless it was the hypothetical M1 Garand that assinated Hitler. Even then, we would still be talking about a historical artifact, famous maybe, but not something that has a direct connection with peoples' faith.
I'm not thinking of it as a current faith item but a possible one and as Sanya, Harry and Micheal demonstrate faith is broad so it could easily be possible as a holy item (likely no but not impossible), given the number of wacky cults and 'survivalist' groups an alignment of both could set up a gun as a holy item and who knows maybe Nic's fanatics might qualify as such a group. I'm just raising the possibility not the probability and Nic's nuts apart there is no known DF group that might.
Stephen

Offline MacsNewBrew

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2008, 12:50:17 AM »
I'm not thinking of it as a current faith item but a possible one and as Sanya, Harry and Micheal demonstrate faith is broad so it could easily be possible as a holy item (likely no but not impossible), given the number of wacky cults and 'survivalist' groups an alignment of both could set up a gun as a holy item and who knows maybe Nic's fanatics might qualify as such a group. I'm just raising the possibility not the probability and Nic's nuts apart there is no known DF group that might.

You make a good point. I could easily see one as an item of personal faith in this light. Harry believes in the pentacle, which is why it harmed Bianca. Also, Michael's armor was an anathea [sp?] to the guests at Bianca's party in GP, even though we find out in PG that Charity most likely made it. The swords are so powerful because of the connection to the crucifiction, and the faith of Christians everywhere, whereas the armor's power comes from Michael's faith in it.
Someone who found themselves in several very hairy situations, and managed to survive because of a gun, might have a lot of personal faith in that weapon.
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Offline TheMouse

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2008, 02:24:44 AM »

Offline Slife

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2008, 10:51:33 PM »
So, how about duplicating the effect instead of just enhancing a preexisting gun?

Instead of gunpowder, use some kinetic charged magic thingy.  Charge it up by leeching off a train's momentum.  Load some bullets, pull the trigger, and some of the kinetic energy is released.  Instead of pushing directly onto the enemy, it's used to accelerate a small piece of enchanted metal.

Not really that high tech, but it's still a magic gun.
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Offline Stephen

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Re: Enchanting guns and other tech items?
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 10:16:30 AM »
So, how about duplicating the effect instead of just enhancing a preexisting gun?

Instead of gunpowder, use some kinetic charged magic thingy.  Charge it up by leeching off a train's momentum.  Load some bullets, pull the trigger, and some of the kinetic energy is released.  Instead of pushing directly onto the enemy, it's used to accelerate a small piece of enchanted metal.

Not really that high tech, but it's still a magic gun.
Love the idea.
I've been wondering why harry charges his force rings with arm movements when he could use much more powerful momentum sources (heel strke, leg swings if personal space is required) but I've always wondered about massive momentum sources (the beetle, trucks, el trains, freight trains, ships, etc). I've assumed its because you either can't or the spell to do it is too different/complex/dangerous but there is always the possibility that it's just unthought of.
Stephen