Want to learn more

[Belmonte]

Another good option is to buy both!  Really, though, I think a perfect combination is Armageddon (or Witchcraft) with Drama Points stolen from Angel.  I tend to tweak skills a bit, but sometimes having more focused skills is nice--kind of like when Harry can use a staff but isn't skilled with a sword, or how he has no idea how to use a rifle, but knows how to use his pistol.

There's even options to convert between the systems in the back of _The Magic Box_.

As for Fate...I'm looking forward to it, myself.  I'm a bit leery of certain aspects of Fate--parts of it REALLY aren't explained very well, to my mind--I remember problems with describing signature magic items--sometimes it's one thing, sometimes it's another, as an example.  But it's a cool system in general, and I'm hoping they clarify a lot of that for the 'non-generic' Dresden Files RPG.

Now if only they'd have a public call for playtesters...

[rdonoghue]

I actually agree that Cinematic Unisystem is _far_ better, but Witchcraft/Armageddon have better magic support.  Belmonte's nailed it on the head though - were I to run a Dresden game using commercial stuff currently available, I would purchase three books:

The Angel RPG for core system
The Armageddon RPG for all the rules for magic, plus a ton of other usable stuff.
The Magic Box book for Buffy for ease of conversion between the two.

If I were feelign more frugal, I'd just get the witchcraft PDF (which is either free or cheap, I can't recall which) and call it a day, though.

-Rob D.

[finarvyn]

If I were feelign more frugal, I'd just get the witchcraft PDF (which is either free or cheap, I can't recall which) and call it a day, though.

Good ideas, Rob! At this point, the Witchcraft PDF is still a free download from DriveThruRPG. I think this link will get you there:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=692

[Piraterogue]

I am actually partial to the Magic Sytem in Shodowrun.  It is based on Fatigue.  IE. every spell has a formula for how tired it makes you.  And their are modifiers for all kinds of stuff.  So you could cast the same spell twice in a row and have totally different levels of tired from it.  Like you get punched in between them your second one is going to affect you alot more than the first. 

The whole idea of fatigue seems alot more realistic than any other system.   You cast a powerful spell first, then all the other much simplier spells after it are still going to be alot harder because your already tired.   

[iago]

The whole idea of fatigue seems alot more realistic than any other system.   You cast a powerful spell first, then all the other much simplier spells after it are still going to be alot harder because your already tired.   

This stuff cracks me up.  People talk about casting magic spells, and then use words like "realistic" when describing systems for them.  Hilarious.

The only thing that matters to us, the designers of the Dresden Files RPG, is whether or not casting magic in the Dresden Files RPG feels like casting magic in the novels.  If we hit that mark, that's accuracy, regardless of whether or not you might think it's "realistic"

[Belmonte]

This stuff cracks me up.  People talk about casting magic spells, and then use words like "realistic" when describing systems for them.  Hilarious.

People use 'realistic' a lot when they mean 'having verisimilitude'.  It's something you have to translate in your head.   Kind of like how everyone's definition of 'cinematic' and 'gritty' is different.

The only thing that matters to us, the designers of the Dresden Files RPG, is whether or not casting magic in the Dresden Files RPG feels like casting magic in the novels.  If we hit that mark, that's accuracy, regardless of whether or not you might think it's "realistic"

This is how it should be, IMO.  I'm looking forward, myself, to being able to run a campaign with a wizard, a knight of the cross, and a white court vampire.

[finarvyn]

I am actually partial to the Magic Sytem in Shodowrun.  It is based on Fatigue.  IE. every spell has a formula for how tired it makes you.  And their are modifiers for all kinds of stuff.  So you could cast the same spell twice in a row and have totally different levels of tired from it.

Dunno if it's a better system or not, but it certainly sounds more complex. Your description scares me somewhat because I sense the creativity of the spellcaster getting lost in order to create uniformity. Each spell has its own fatigue formula? And that formula changes with use? Sounds great for a computer game, but I’m not so sure in a face-to-face RPG. Of course, I say this without having all of the rules in front of me; it may play better than it sounds. (I’ll have to rummage on my shelves to find that copy of Shadowrun 3E to see how it’s done there.)

I have this "simulation versus playability" discussion on a regular basis with some of my gamer friends and never can understand the allure of extra rules and such in the name of having a more perfect simulation. Frankly, what I like to see in a RPG is a system that is medium to simple in complexity, yet is flexible enough where I can use the game in the situations I encounter. This is the potential problem found in the D&D magic system, where our hero may be overheard saying “I’ve got lots of power left in reserve, but I forgot to memorize that particular spell” or “I’ve got lots of power left in reserve, but I’m out of first level spells” or some such.

Just an opinion.

[Belmonte]

It really isn't that hard.  In SR, the system is basically:

1) Roll to cast the spell
2) Roll to soak the fatigue (the spell has a set fatigue level depending on the spell's Force (power))
3) Target rolls Body or Will, gets a # of hits (successes)
4) Target gets hurt, mind controlled, or whatever.

An example fatigue value might be F / 2, at least in 4E.  You'd need to roll a number of successes equal to its F / 2 to not be hurt.  Bit crunchy, but really not bad.

It's really not hard.  I actually like the SR system, myself, but it's not the only way it can happen.  My preference is for the 4E system, which has some good modifications and streamlining, though, compared to 1-3E.   Some people dislike it due to that very streamlining though.  Me?  I think that makes it even better.

For Harry Dresden, though ... it could work, but it really doesn't fit with the more fluid, on-the-fly nature of Fate in general.

[Chrimnon]

I am so excited to thear is to be an RPG. The systam sounds great but I was wondering what the spell list is going to be like and if some PC races will have "Innate" spells and abillitys and is the combat systam as involved as the magic?

[finarvyn]

I was wondering what the spell list is going to be like and if some PC races will have "Innate" spells and abillitys and is the combat systam as involved as the magic?

The way that FATE works in general (recall that FATE is the engine that will make DFRPG run) is that when you build a character you can give it something called an "Aspect" which essentially can represent anything cool that a character can do. In this way you can simulate a PC race if you simply compile a list of special things and associate them with Aspects.

As far as the magic system goes ... this is probably the biggest secret for DFRPG so far. The intent is to simulate as best as possible magic as described in the books, but the exact details aren't being shared with the public yet. We can surmise that DFRPG will contain a simple but generic spell list and probably a set of rules that will allow a wizard to build his own spells as needed.

Again, the goal is to achieve the "feel" of the books in a game environment.

It is possible that certain races will have Aspects which correspond to "innate" spell-like powers. For example, sidhe may have some sort of charm ability, or vampires may have some sort of illusion ability to make them appear attractive instead of spider-like. As to how these powers are handled in the game, we do not yet have an official answer.

[Mickey Finn]

Reply to: DM vs. GM vs. Storyteller

I personally prefer "Game Master," as it isn't proprietary like DM (D&D) and Storyteller (WoD) are.

I prefer "God, Who Art Thy Master."

This may be why I don't get to run games anymore.

[iago]

I am so excited to thear is to be an RPG. The systam sounds great but I was wondering what the spell list is going to be like and if some PC races will have "Innate" spells and abillitys and is the combat systam as involved as the magic?

Spell list -- not sure yet.  We're providing the ability to create spells using some very simple building blocks with Evocation, and we're still kicking Thaumaturgy around the block.

Innate abilities -- Yep.  We'll have plenty of those.

Combat system -- The conflict resolution system keeps things pretty simple, while offering a bunch of options.  We hope to have another game, Spirit of the Century, out in the next couple of months, which will feature a similar (though not exactly identical) combat system.  It'll be worth checking out if you're eager for a preview.

[finarvyn]

You might look at the top of the RPG forum for something called The Dresden Files RPG -- Information Thread. It contains lots of links that will give you more details, including information about the Spirit of the Century RPG.

Or ... feel free to ask more specific questions here. That's what this forum is all about!

[rdonoghue]

So, general thoughts on other systems.

Shadowrun
So, if we were talkign anything other than 4th ed, I'd probably be fairly dismissive, but they really did clean things up in the latest version.  It is vastly more streamlined, and the fact that I no longer have to buy spells at a specific force level is an oh-my-god improvement.  It's drain model has been very influential on the development of non mana-based magic systems in many RPGs, and with good reason, and while we won't be taking from it directly, it would be unfair to say that it is not an influence.

That said, as a system, a lot fo the thigns that make it a strong match for Shadowrun end up being problems for Dresden.  It's a spell based rather than effect based system, so it would require major retuning to handle the sort of effects that we see Harry do.  Other key components, like Initiation and the Essence rating, just don't translate well out of setting.

Mage
Ok, when people say Mage, they tend to mean two different things: Old Mage, with subjective reality, and New Mage, with it's more firmly established cosmology.

The both use sphere-based magic, which is (or can be) effects based, which is potent and flexible.  If I want to throw a bolt of fire at someone, the GM goes Ok, that will take this many spheres of this type and maybe this many spheres of this other type.  While the specifics vary between the two games, the core principal is incredibly potent and flexible (as it is in Mage's grand-daddy system, Ars Magica, which was my first exposure to combinative magic).

The problem is that while the concept works, Mage operates at a layer of abstraction that is a bit too far removed from where things happen in Dresden.  Pretty much all of evocation could be folded into Forces, and many of the other spheres are beyond the scope of where the focus for Dresden really should be.  In short, to run Dresden with Mage requires neutering Mage, a solution that I think benefits neither party.

(That said, I just picked up Second Sight, the nWoD miscellaneous powers book, and it's nicely indicative that someone _could_ build something closer to Dresden than Mage within the nWoD system, but I've always been a fan of the new core rules, so that's no shock.)

Now, setting aside the specifics, can the _concepts_ of Mage be translated, perhaps with a more thematic set of spheres?  Well, probably, but I wouldn't do it for a few reasons, most notably that it is almost _too_ effects based as a model.  Old style Mage had Rotes, but they felt more like a system gimmick than any kind of way to ground play in magical tradition.  New mage addresses that substantially, but it does so in ways which (rightfully) reinforce the specifics of the new setting.

However, I do not think that one can do a modern magic system without owing some debt to both Ars Magica and Mage, and we certainly won't be any different.

If people have other systems in mind, I can try to address them.  I haven't played everything, but if I can reassure folks that we're not dismissing other approaches out of hand, I'll be happy to try.  And just for reference, I love Mage, though I am definitely of the new rather than old camp for all the trouble that causes, and I just ran the first session of a Shadowrun game this past weekend and it went pretty darn well.

-Rob D.

[Mickey Finn]

As an old fan of Mage (old version, haven't yet played any of the new versions of WW games) and someone playing Shadowrun this weekend, that was most enlightening, thank you.