Author Topic: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy  (Read 22226 times)

Offline becroberts

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2006, 10:20:47 AM »
Would I be consigning the book to oblivion by having a guy tell it?  Or is the market ready for more of that kind of thing (Harry being a success)? 

I can't speak for the rest of the market but I'm certainly ready for more male narrators. Not that I won't read books with female narrators - I'm not that picky about my urban fantasy, provided there aren't too many gratuitous shoe references - but I simply enjoy male protagonists more. (Notably Harry Dresden and Jack Fleming.) Can't figure out why this is, mind you, unless it's because the men seem to get less sex (or less graphic sex when they do get it) and I prefer tasteful 'fade to black' type scenes.

Offline Dom

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • "I can't believe it's not Butters!"
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2006, 12:35:58 PM »
Would I be consigning the book to oblivion by having a guy tell it?  Or is the market ready for more of that kind of thing (Harry being a success)?  Of course, the correct answer is to write whatever makes a good story, and that's what I'll do.  But still, it's just another example of how mind-boggling it is trying to figure out what this genre's going to do.

I think it's more than ready for male narrators.  All my urban fantasy is actually narrated by males (that's just how it went) and I agree that the bad-ass supernatural chick thing is getting old.

Just be wary and don't give the male narrator a feminine voice.  I had that problem in my early work, and the thing I'm working on now I'm looking at sideways, because I can't tell if I'm feminizing Raul, my character, or not.

As a side note, it's interesting to watch how Jim does characterization, vs. how female writers do it.  There's a slight difference, and I'm not sure if it's because it's comparing different authors to one another, or if gender plays into it or not.
- has put $0.10 in the pun tip jar as of today.

Offline fjeastman

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2006, 03:19:41 PM »

I think the overall "image" of the market for these books is female ... and that the impression is all female readers desire a romance novel ... with added content. 

I've only "seen" Jim's audience in the population of the boards and the attendance at his talk this year at Dragon*Con ... but at LEAST half of the audience seems to be men.

'Course I could be biased.  :)  I know what -I- would like to see ... and what I'm not seeing ... and what I want to write, which I'm also not seeing. 

Now, the situation remains that the IMAGE of the market may be that it is a majority women who want to see female characters, and that male characters won't sell to publishers.  But that's akin to producing only chocolate icecream and saying the ice-cream-buying market is made up entirely of people who like chocolate. 

Good fiction will sell.  Thus I aspire to write good fiction.

I think I have a good story to tell, and I hope I can do so skillfully. 

--fje

Offline becroberts

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2006, 04:07:35 PM »

I think the overall "image" of the market for these books is female ... and that the impression is all female readers desire a romance novel ... with added content. 


All the urban fantasy readers I know IRL are female, but yeah, based on the board demographics the genre is just as popular with males. What irritates me is the idea that female readers need romance (or more) in a book to enjoy it. I may be in the minority with this opinion but I really don't enjoy reading romance. Flirtatious dialogue is one thing; watching couples spar in a will-they won't they fashion is good entertainment and I enjoy writing it myself. But when a good chunk of the plot is dedicated to romance in some way, particularly when there's a lot of physical interaction, it bores me to tears.

I get round this in my own books by giving my protagonist a love interest who refuses to date him, as he would have to dismantle his partner first and he's not prepared to do that. This way I get to put in as much fun and flirting as I like, but save the angst for more important things.

(We seem to have lost the vampires somewhere along the way, don't we? This is an interesting topic, though, so perhaps we should start a 'Heroes vs. Heroines' thread or something.)

Offline fjeastman

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2006, 06:01:23 PM »

Well, my original question was sort of predicated by a "is this what the market really wants?" sort of thing.

I.E. are there so many vampires in current contemporary supernatural (con/sup?) fiction because there HAVE to be?  I.E. would a book that didn't contain vampires (or vampire cognates, really) ... I think the same question sort of applies up and down the board to any Hot Sexy Dangerous and Supernatural creature:  hotsexy werewolves (as opposed to scary ones like the Loup Garou in Fool Moon), hotsexy demons (incubi/succubi), etc.

Or is this just a trope that happens to be popular with AUTHORS ...

I asked because my vampires aren't hot or sexy.  Nor are they monstrously alien.  More monstrous in the human perspective.

We could also use a thread on women in supernatural fiction.  Check your local listings.

--fje

Offline Richelle Mead

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Redhaired and Dangerous
    • View Profile
    • Richelle Mead's Official Website
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2006, 07:26:45 AM »
(We seem to have lost the vampires somewhere along the way, don't we? This is an interesting topic, though, so perhaps we should start a 'Heroes vs. Heroines' thread or something.)

Yup.  I'm jumping over there...   ;)
FROSTBITE - Available now from Penguin/Razorbill!
STORM BORN - Coming August 08 from Kensington
Visit my site for more info: http://www.richellemead.com

Offline Cathy Clamp

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Dances with Segues
    • View Profile
    • C.T. Adams & Cathy Clamp Official Website
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2006, 06:28:38 PM »
I would personally like to see a couple of vampire novels in first person male. I enjoy reading urban fantasy/horror in first person. It has that very "real" closeness that drags me into the plot. I might consider something like that for the future. Our first book, Hunter's Moon, is first person male--except he's a werewolf. But a vampire story, sort of a noir detective thing, might be a lot of fun. Maybe even set in the 30's or 40's. That could be a kick. Sort of a "Mickey Spillane with fangs."  Heh. 

Yeah, now you've got me going...  ;D
Smiles!
Cathy Clamp
Touch of Evil, USA Today bestseller
Magic's Design, now available everywhere
COLD MOON RISING, coming soon, 8/09. Preorder today!
visit our website to read sample chapters--http://www.ciecatrunpubs.com

Offline becroberts

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2006, 06:39:24 PM »
I would personally like to see a couple of vampire novels in first person male. But a vampire story, sort of a noir detective thing, might be a lot of fun. Maybe even set in the 30's or 40's. That could be a kick. Sort of a "Mickey Spillane with fangs."  Heh. 

P.N. Elrod's Vampire Files series would be perfect for you, then. They were what turned me on to urban fantasy in the first place, and are still a constant presence on my bookcase. First person male, vampire reporter-turned-detective/nightclub owner/part-time mobster in the 1930s.

Offline Linda

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2006, 01:15:41 AM »
They are human, just changed. They aren't giant ticks, or even monsters, exactly. That might be why people relate to vampires. If vampires existed in real life, you couldn't even kill them, obviously. Having a soul isn't a terrific definition of live citizen, scince we have no gizmo that can verify anyone having a soul.

Offline whoknowswhy

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2006, 08:04:08 PM »
Maybe I've latched onto it late, but I still like reading about vampires.  I think what makes Charlaine Harris' books stand out for me is that while vamps are central to the story, there are other supernaturals as well.  It takes place in the "real" world, and they are funny as well as scary.  I'm not as fond of the vampire/romance novels out there, although I've read quite a few.  Harris' books have the same kind of tongue-in-cheek humor that I loved in Buffy.

As to the market, IMO there will always be a market for the "traditional" supernatural, i.e. werewolves, vampires, etc., just like there is a market for detective stories, lawyers solving crimes, and CSI-like investigators.  The supernatural world in publishing is experiencing a boom right now, and that will pass, but the genre is set and will always be there.  An author coming in with a new twist will still be able to break in.

I like good stories no matter who is doing the narrating.  I think that women narrators have been rare in the past, especially in this genre, so the surge in that was filling a void.  Consider the void full.  LOL.  I am ready to read something from a male pov.  A modern story, like Harry's, from a male vamp pov would be interesting.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 08:08:30 PM by whoknowswhy »
Forgiveness is easier to obtain than permission.

Offline novium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 817
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2006, 08:56:09 PM »
i don't know. I just can't get comfortable with vampires as good guys/sexy. I mean, i've read some, obviously. but the bloodsucking part just turns my stomach.
sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

In anger nothing right nor judicious can be done.

Offline fjeastman

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2006, 12:28:55 AM »
i don't know. I just can't get comfortable with vampires as good guys/sexy. I mean, i've read some, obviously. but the bloodsucking part just turns my stomach.

Have I got a book for you ...

Gimme a few years, get it finished and published ... oi.

--fje

Offline Akimbo

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Grand Mage of the Off-White Council
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2006, 05:09:43 PM »
I'm using vamps in my books but, as someone said earlier in the thread, I'm sticking close to the demon/angel theme.  My vampires are just one order of demons. Only one of them is intended to be sexy, but believe me he is only sexy until he gets angry.

I think vampires are the in thing in writing because they are so accessible, but also they are a staple of horror.  ANything that's so close to being human but is actually a monster is more scary thatn a big lizardy thing that bears no relationship to human beings.  Only my opinion though...

Offline The Corvidian

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 987
  • I like crows and ravens.
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2006, 05:00:56 PM »
What gets me is why most authors don't let their vampires eat regular food, or if they do, they go and vomit it up sometime later. You would think, with the amount of energy that it would take for their strength, speed, and other powers that they would need to eat to have high energy reserves. Also, from what I've read, the whole sunlight thing didn't make it into the mythos until F.W. Murnow(sp?) made Nosferatu.
Clarke's Third Law: Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Niven's Converse to Clarke's 3rd Law: Sufficently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.

Offline fjeastman

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Vampire Use In Contemporary Fantasy
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2006, 06:06:20 PM »

IIRC, in Dracula, the vampire wasn't so much burned/incinerated by sunlight as had to go out without his powers.  I think it was also a special thing for him, and left him vulnerable.  I.E. he could only "go human" or "go vampire" at dusk or dawn, and so was stuck either asleep in his box or awake and powerless until the sun went down.

Note that Dracula was also seen to never eat actual food.  He also had a huge suite of magical abilities .... he could shrink down to the size of a bug, poof around as a cloud of dust, control animals, turn into a bat or wolf, mesmerize, etc, most of which modern writers only choose a handful of for their own vampire mythos.

Now, mythological vampires run all over the board.  What we call a "vampire" was codified by Stoker in Dracula, and that he ripped off from, IIRC, some central european myths mixed together with some home-grown BS and mythology having nothing to do with things we'd call "vampires".  Other cultures, of course, had their own types of myths, and they interchanged and interplayed as people moved about, many of them called "vampires" where they intersected, some with different names and similar powers.  Alot of it had to do with fears related to the preservation of bodies ... human tissue shrinks after death, giving the fingernails and hair a "longer" appearance (as the skin draws away), so people who dug up corpses occassionally thought that their hair and nails had continued to grow after death, and thus the body LIVED after death ... addionally human bodies tend to soponificate ... which is to say, the fatty tissues sort of solidify and turn themselves into a rendered soap-like substance.  This can give corpses a waxy, "preserved" appearance that lasts into periods when the corpse next door might be rendered into bones and mouldy hair, again giving rise to bodies that live beyond death. 

Vampires in modern fiction have a few things in common:

1)  Sexy ... Anne Rice sort of crowned this and made it a usual modern feature.  Death and Sex often go together, and girls do love a bad boy, so the vampire (as a killer monster in a human body) sex symbol sells.

2)  Alive ... It's become pretty popular to have vampires be "alive", it seems ... people infected with a virus or cursed or having a "demon soul" or whatever.  Usually these people have their vampires eat real food, since it's pretty silly to have a human-sized blood parasite.  Blood just isn't that great a medium for energy transfer when digested and most blood parasites are both expandable and much smaller than their prey.

3)  Sunlight Burnable ... Again, this wasn't always in the mythology and does seem to be codified from movie-myth.  As the living dead, most mythological vampires had a CONNECTION to the night ... either only coming out at night or only revealing their powers at night or only HAVING power at night, etc.  I think it's popular because the modern vampire is a modern superman ... stronger, faster, sexier ... this becomes an obvious drawback and method for keeping the Super-Sexy Brigade in check, which serves to make them EVEN SEXIER because they can be tragic figures while kicking butt and looking hot.

People usually play with these, combining and dropping features, putting together their own "logical" and "realistic" vampires, etc.  Oddly, "real" mythology is usually the most bizzare ... like variations on some eastern vampires whose HEADS are vampires ... the head pops off and goes rolling about with some entrails attached to it, it climbs around and sucks blood ...

--fje