Author Topic: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?  (Read 1157 times)

Offline LordDresden2

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Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« on: January 26, 2025, 10:58:58 PM »
We've all observed that the White Council is freaked out because Harry is accumulating power and connections at a tremendous rate, and starting to remind them of Kemmler.  But it occurs to me to wonder, purely speculatively (it has to be speculative since we have little data), if there are more parallels than we know.

Bob informed Harry and us that Kemmler was one of the causes of World War I (I'm sure he was not the sole cause, there were a lot of quite mundane reasons why a big European war was likely in the early 20C, but we know from Bob that Kemmler played a big role building that up ver the previous century, too).  Bob told us that Kemmler had connections with the major vampire courts, the nastier Fae, and so on.

It occurs to me that no matter how brilliant and naturally magically strong Kemmler was, building up all that would take a long time.  Kemmler might have been a major innovator in necromancy, but I'm sure he didn't come up with his knowledge overnight.

Why did it get so far?  Why was in only in freaking 1961 that the Council finally punched Kemmler's ticket, after all that?  World War I ran from 1914 to 1918/19 (depending on when you count it ending) and its aftereffects went on for decades.  Necromancy is a straight Law violation in itself.

What I'm getting at here is to ask, given the Council's chop-happy approach to the Laws, how is it that Kemmler wasn't neutralized fairly early, while it would still have been relatively easy?

My speculation is that the Council wasn't always as chop-happy as Harry has known them.  Any human organization, over generations, goes through phases and changes, things get stricter or easier, attitudes get softer or harder.  Wizard lifespans would make the Council slower to change, but it's over 2000 years old, so it's certain to have gone through such phases.

My speculation is that in the late 1700s/early 1800s, maybe all the way up to the turn of the 20C, the Council was a lot more easy-going.  I'm sure they still executed warlocks and enforced the Laws, but they might well have been more willing to see grey areas or grant second chances, too.  I wonder if it was in a 'more relaxed' phase.

Which might have enabled an up and coming young warlock to grow into Kemmler himself.  There might have been doubts about his intentions.  Maybe he hid the bad well, or maybe his first indulgences in necromancy were technically legal, like Harry and Sue.  Maybe he even did some good stuff, so the Council wasn't sure about him, and they erred on the side of mercy.

And the result was World War I (and as a side-effect of that, the USSR, World War II, the Holocaust, the Cold War, etc.  All that stuff flowed from World War I one way or another.) and a near-miss elevation of Kemmler to Mab-level power in a darkhallow.

OK, the Council finally caught up with Kemmler and put him down in 1961.  Harry killed Justin sometime around 1988-1992.  (If Harry is born in the early 70s, that makes him 16 around then.)

If my speculation is right, post-Kemmler the Council is probably traumatized and maybe guilt-stricken over the scale of the deaths and suffering and horror Kemmler caused, and determined 'never again'.

If we count in everyone that the USSR either starved intentionally in the 1930s or mass-murdered in the gulags, and everyone the Nazis murdered, plus the deaths of soldiers and civilians in the World Wars, plus the maimed, the blinded, the mentally broken, then Kemmler's direct and indirect butcher's bill is in the hundreds of millions.

Then on top of that, Kemmler is narrowlly stopped from becoming a small-g god in a Darkhallow.

So it would be completely understandable if the post-1961 Council took the attitude that public safety now takes absolute precedence over justice or mercy, with no meaningful gray areas.  So the post-1961 Council is chop-happy, they no longer err on the side of letting the innocent slide, they're more concerned with making sure no more mega-warlocks get past them.

(If I'm right, eventually that phase too would pass and things would relax somewhat again, but given Wizard lifetimes that might take a century or more.)

This theory might explain Maggie Sr. too.  Apparently Margaret had been a thorn in the Council's side for a very long time, but she still lived.  But if my theory is right, after Kemmler went down the Council was no longer prepared to tolerate such thorns, and the orders went out to the Wardens to hunt her down and kill her.  Lord Raith beat them to it, but we have it straight from Ebenezar that the Wardens were hunting her, not just watching.

It might be that the late 50s/early 60s war with Kemmler caused the Council to say, "Enough of this crap!" and start cracking down hard on warlocks and proto-warlocks and anyone who looks like they might become a warlock.

 

Offline Mira

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2025, 03:18:54 PM »
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If my speculation is right, post-Kemmler the Council is probably traumatized and maybe guilt-stricken over the scale of the deaths and suffering and horror Kemmler caused, and determined 'never again'.
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This theory might explain Maggie Sr. too.  Apparently Margaret had been a thorn in the Council's side for a very long time, but she still lived.  But if my theory is right, after Kemmler went down the Council was no longer prepared to tolerate such thorns, and the orders went out to the Wardens to hunt her down and kill her.  Lord Raith beat them to it, but we have it straight from Ebenezar that the Wardens were hunting her, not just watching.

My only problem with your theory is why the Council allowed young Harry to live?  Half of the Senior Council never bought that Harry had killed Justin in self defense, thus he broke a Law of Magic.  They all knew who's son he was and suspected that Harry might turn out like her.. Yet, they proclaimed him at 16, a full wizard because he was able to face off with and kill Justin a full wizard and retired Warden. After they did that since Harry was under age the Council handed him over to Eb under the Doom.. Yeah, Eb is Blackstaff, had orders to watch Harry closely and kill him if any signs of warlockness appeared, but if the Council really felt, 'never again,' why let Harry live at all?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2025, 03:41:35 PM by Mira »

Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2025, 10:26:36 PM »
I think that yes, part of it was Eb watching Harry, but for those in the know perhaps it was also just Eb not trying to kill them. Or not having to worry if Eb will try to kill them /have them killed sometime over the next 50 years.

Of course it should be noted that Harry also started a war, he was just a lot quicker about it.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2025, 05:46:18 AM »
My only problem with your theory is why the Council allowed young Harry to live?  Half of the Senior Council never bought that Harry had killed Justin in self defense, thus he broke a Law of Magic.  They all knew who's son he was and suspected that Harry might turn out like her.. Yet, they proclaimed him at 16, a full wizard because he was able to face off with and kill Justin a full wizard and retired Warden. After they did that since Harry was under age the Council handed him over to Eb under the Doom.. Yeah, Eb is Blackstaff, had orders to watch Harry closely and kill him if any signs of warlockness appeared, but if the Council really felt, 'never again,' why let Harry live at all?

That's a good question.  But then again, it's an equally good question whether my hypothesis is true or not, considering that whether or not the Council was more 'relaxed' before Kemmler, they visibly were chop-happy by the 1990s and after.

We don't fully know the answer to how Harry survived.

To be fair, they almost did kill him.  He came very close, several times, and it was partly the fact that Ebenezar is a high-ranking Council member himself, and a few of the other high-rankers were at least prepared to listen, that saved him.  Harry being a starborn may have been part of the equation, too.  The Council clearly knows more about starborns than Harry has been told, some Councillors may have considered his starborn status to make him valuable enough to take a risk with.

But we just don't have enough information to say for sure.   

Offline Mira

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2025, 02:54:05 PM »
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But we just don't have enough information to say for sure.   

That's the problem isn't it?  We have a lot of bits and pieces but very few of them fit together!  It's like working one of those zillion piece jigsaw puzzles, the kind where the picture you are making blends together so you go blind finding pieces that fit together over twenty or so books... Then just when you think you are getting some sections to actually fit together, your six month old Lab upsets the card table it's sitting on, :o then eats an unknown number of the puzzle pieces! ::) >:(  Good luck with inspecting his poop for surviving pieces.. ;)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 06:57:03 AM by Mira »

Offline Griffimus

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2025, 04:52:28 AM »
I've always wondered if Kemmler was Starborn like Harry was.  I believe there is another character who is also Starborn as well, was it Nicodemus?  Maybe after being told he was, Kemmler tried gaining more power but went about it the wrong way.

So this is why the Council won't tell Harry anything about the Starborn stuff because they don't want a repeat.  Could be why they are so nervous of how he's getting his power from Mab..

This is due to my assumption that the Starborn person is destined to do something so Huge/Life changing and it just hasn't happened yet because all previous Starborn have failed..  maybe it's has to do with the Time Travel book we are getting in the future.  The Council knows a Starborn from the Future went back in time to fix something but they don't know who it was.  ?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2025, 04:55:10 AM by Griffimus »

Offline Mira

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2025, 05:19:27 AM »
I've always wondered if Kemmler was Starborn like Harry was.  I believe there is another character who is also Starborn as well, was it Nicodemus?  Maybe after being told he was, Kemmler tried gaining more power but went about it the wrong way.

So this is why the Council won't tell Harry anything about the Starborn stuff because they don't want a repeat.  Could be why they are so nervous of how he's getting his power from Mab..

This is due to my assumption that the Starborn person is destined to do something so Huge/Life changing and it just hasn't happened yet because all previous Starborn have failed..  maybe it's has to do with the Time Travel book we are getting in the future.  The Council knows a Starborn from the Future went back in time to fix something but they don't know who it was.  ?


I doubt that he was because he wasn't same age as Harry and I doubt he was over six hundred years of age.

Offline g33k

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2025, 04:39:38 PM »
...
Why did it get so far?  Why was in only in freaking 1961 that the Council finally punched Kemmler's ticket, after all that?  World War I ran from 1914 to 1918/19 (depending on when you count it ending) and its aftereffects went on for decades.  Necromancy is a straight Law violation in itself ...
Note that they tried before, according to Bob.
But also note that Kemmler was naturally strong with life&death magics (burly, like Harry is with Force and Fire (and Earth).

I don't think the Council knew how to kill Kemmler; how to bypass the protections Kemmler was using, the "mostly-dead-isn't-all-the-way-dead" tricks, etc... 1961 was them finally pulling out all the stops, not just "killing" him but applying absurd levels of overkill (not just force, but post-killing magical efforts to prevent all the ways of coming back).

... What I'm getting at here is to ask, given the Council's chop-happy approach to the Laws, how is it that Kemmler wasn't neutralized fairly early, while it would still have been relatively easy?

Kemmler was a known necromancer at least as far back as 1883 (Warden (pre-Captain) Luccio fought him in one of the short stories, A Fistful of Warlocks).

Offline Mira

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2025, 06:08:29 PM »
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I don't think the Council knew how to kill Kemmler; how to bypass the protections Kemmler was using, the "mostly-dead-isn't-all-the-way-dead" tricks, etc... 1961 was them finally pulling out all the stops, not just "killing" him but applying absurd levels of overkill (not just force, but post-killing magical efforts to prevent all the ways of coming back).

Oh I think they did, because when they did, as a team, they took him down.  I think it took so long because Kemmler was a Warden and then a former one and they had a hard time accepting that he could be bad.  No different from the fact at least half the Senior Council cannot believe that Justin had gone warlock.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 06:18:38 PM by Mira »

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2025, 05:39:48 AM »
I wonder if Kemmler did what Alt-Harry will be doing in the Mirror Mirror world.  I should qualify that statement.  Maybe Kemmler did what I think Alt-Harry is doing in the Mirror Mirror world.  Somehow finding the power to summon versions of himself from other universes and setting them up to take the fall for his crimes.

This is the reason why the White Council killed the necromancer, over and over again.  I think Bob told Harry that the Council killed Kemmler a bunch of times.  Originally, I thought Kemmler did what Corpse Taker tried to do in Ghost Story.  Somehow keep his soul intact after physically dying and eventually found someone else to posses.  However, that doesn’t make much sense because Kemmler’s outer appearance would keep changing with every new possession.  He could even posses a woman’s body, if he had to.  So, how would the Council even know they were dealing with Kemmler?

Summoning and setting other Kemmler’s up to die makes it understandable that the White Council thought they were killing Kemmler and then having him come back.  They were killing Kemmler, just the wrong Kemmler.

The reason we keep getting different dates for Kemmler’s final and permanent death is because there are different Kemmler’s in different universes doing the same thing, but not all at the same time.  So we get Kemmler getting killed after WW2, in the 1950’s and 1961.   This is another example of a continuity error that isn’t an error at all.  It is no different than the example of there being a Brighter Future Society and Better Future Society and no one notices the distinction. 
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Offline Mira

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2025, 01:19:38 PM »
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The reason we keep getting different dates for Kemmler’s final and permanent death is because there are different Kemmler’s in different universes doing the same thing, but not all at the same time.  So we get Kemmler getting killed after WW2, in the 1950’s and 1961.   This is another example of a continuity error that isn’t an error at all.  It is no different than the example of there being a Brighter Future Society and Better Future Society and no one notices the distinction.
Report

 Or in the spirit of a quote from Mark Twain,  "reports of Kemmler's death were greatly exaggerated.."  In other words someone as clever as Kemmler would have ways of faking his death.  Reports of Kemmler being dead, doesn't mean he was dead.  For all we know the true spirit of Kemmler is Evil Bob.  The only reason Kemmler remains dead now, is Harry forbade Bob from accessing that part of himself.. Then finally after almost killing Harry during his brief resurrection, Bob completely cut himself off from what would become Evil Bob. 

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2025, 04:58:21 AM »
Note that they tried before, according to Bob.
But also note that Kemmler was naturally strong with life&death magics (burly, like Harry is with Force and Fire (and Earth).

No doubt they killed him over and over.  For that matter, I'm pretty sure they killed him over and over in a short time in 1961, until he went down and stayed down.

But my point was that Kemmler probably didn't have that level of power until he'd been in the game for a while.  Unless he suddenly displayed his badness all at once with no warning, it's a little odd that an organization as chop-happy as the Council we've seen in the books hadn't already acted, while it would be easy.

Unless that Council as we've known it as the way we've known it because of Kemmler.  Then that makes sense, and it would also help explain why Margaret was able to run as wild as she did for as long as she did. 

If we take Stacy's comments at face value, even before she finally crossed over the line, Margaret deliberately danced up to the edge of the Laws, over and over, and got away with it.  The Council we've known since ~2000 wouldn't likely tolerate that for long.  The Wardens would be watching carefully for an excuse and at some point she'd dance an inch too close and CHOP!

But maybe they were more tolerant back in the day.


Offline Mira

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2025, 01:24:58 PM »
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If we take Stacy's comments at face value, even before she finally crossed over the line, Margaret deliberately danced up to the edge of the Laws, over and over, and got away with it.  The Council we've known since ~2000 wouldn't likely tolerate that for long.  The Wardens would be watching carefully for an excuse and at some point she'd dance an inch too close and CHOP!

But maybe they were more tolerant back in the day.

Or not, but Margaret was also closely allied with the White Court when she was Raith's lover.. Someone the White Council doesn't really want to cross openly.. She was also closely allied with the Winter Court, though with no official title that we know of, someone else that the White Council didn't want to cross.  Then when she fell in love and then married Malcolm I think she more or less just slipped off the radar.  Except for when she went about actively creating a star child, I don't think Margaret was very active at all in the magical world after she married Malcolm.  In the end it was a vengeful Lord Raith that killed her, not the Wardens under orders from the White Council.

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2025, 10:28:13 AM »
That's a good question.  But then again, it's an equally good question whether my hypothesis is true or not, considering that whether or not the Council was more 'relaxed' before Kemmler, they visibly were chop-happy by the 1990s and after.

We don't fully know the answer to how Harry survived.

To be fair, they almost did kill him.  He came very close, several times, and it was partly the fact that Ebenezar is a high-ranking Council member himself, and a few of the other high-rankers were at least prepared to listen, that saved him.  Harry being a starborn may have been part of the equation, too.  The Council clearly knows more about starborns than Harry has been told, some Councillors may have considered his starborn status to make him valuable enough to take a risk with.

But we just don't have enough information to say for sure.   
I have always suspected that kemmler traumatized the WC has a whole. Cause if he was a prob from 1861 - 1961, the members of the council had to have felt a lot of guilt about him especially while watching him kick start WW1 and WW2. Everytime they had some atrocities being committed that had to weigh on the council as a whole.
Like sure its not them doing all the evil that kemmler was doing but it was their job to stop him before he got this bad.
I think that guilt would be worse if at some point they let him of with a warning when he started

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Speculation: Was Kemmler like Harry?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2025, 02:22:34 AM »
Why did it get so far?  Why was in only in freaking 1961 that the Council finally punched Kemmler's ticket, after all that?  World War I ran from 1914 to 1918/19 (depending on when you count it ending) and its aftereffects went on for decades.  Necromancy is a straight Law violation in itself.

We know from the Luccio in the Wild West short story that the Wardens had chopping Kemmler as a high priority objective as of ca. 1870-ish.  They actually did kill him repeatedly, the problem was he just kept coming back, presumably through the same or similar means as Team Harry interrupted Corpsetaker from managing.  What took them time wasn't hardening their attitude, it was figuring out a method to keep him down for good.