Molly’s trial… what if…

[SerScot]

Harry had played it cool and not shamed the Merlin.  We all saw the various windows in Harry’s soulgaze of Molly.  Suppose the Merlin imposed the Doom of Damocles on Molly but assigned her apprenticeship to Eb… or LtW instead of Harry.  Would she be the Warden image we saw.  More capable in battle because her Master was less gentle with her in training?

Discuss…

[Mira]

Harry had played it cool and not shamed the Merlin.  We all saw the various windows in Harry’s soulgaze of Molly.  Suppose the Merlin imposed the Doom of Damocles on Molly but assigned her apprenticeship to Eb… or LtW instead of Harry.  Would she be the Warden image we saw.  More capable in battle because her Master was less gentle with her in training?

  I think Molly would have still become what she became.  The flaw in Harry's training wasn't that he was too gentle with her as far as fighting goes, but that he failed to make her understand that she cannot mess with the minds of others.  Actually Eb, as Blackstaff may have ended up executing her himself for breaking that Law of Magic.  She may have fared better with Listens because she had a tendency to want to be a healer, then again would she have learned the main lesson about the thing that almost cost her her head to begin with?

[g33k]

  I think Molly would have still become what she became.  The flaw in Harry's training wasn't that he was too gentle with her as far as fighting goes, but that he failed to make her understand that she cannot mess with the minds of others.  Actually Eb, as Blackstaff may have ended up executing her himself for breaking that Law of Magic.  She may have fared better with Listens because she had a tendency to want to be a healer, then again would she have learned the main lesson about the thing that almost cost her her head to begin with?

I think it's more that Eb is too rigid; apprentice-Molly needed some flexibility from her master.  I expect LtW could have done a good job.  Both of them would have realized (like Harry did) that getting her to feel -- in her gut -- how dangerous mind-magic could be... that would be the only way to keep her from spiralling on down the black-magic path.

That, or a Faerie-Queen mantle...
 

[LordDresden2]

Harry had played it cool and not shamed the Merlin.  We all saw the various windows in Harry’s soulgaze of Molly.  Suppose the Merlin imposed the Doom of Damocles on Molly but assigned her apprenticeship to Eb… or LtW instead of Harry.  Would she be the Warden image we saw.  More capable in battle because her Master was less gentle with her in training?

Discuss…

It would have been better if Harry hadn't embarrassed Langtry, but not for Molly so much as for Harry himself.  Harry's clumsiness at politics has cost him dearly by the end of Battleground, and there's a connecting trail from that trial to Harry's suspension from the Council.

What makes it worse is that Harry has proven that he can play the game when he has to do it.  He's shown the ability to play at the same level as Marcone and Lara.  But he just couldn't bring himself to do it with Langtry, and it's come back to bite him.

As for Molly...I don't think it would have made much difference.  Langtry apparently really believes that warlocks always backslide, sooner or later.  From that POV, killing Molly early could save the lives and/or sanity of multiple potential victims later. 

[Mira]

It would have been better if Harry hadn't embarrassed Langtry, but not for Molly so much as for Harry himself.  Harry's clumsiness at politics has cost him dearly by the end of Battleground, and there's a connecting trail from that trial to Harry's suspension from the Council.

Yes.

As for Molly...I don't think it would have made much difference.  Langtry apparently really believes that warlocks always backslide, sooner or later.  From that POV, killing Molly early could save the lives and/or sanity of multiple potential victims later. 

Langtree might not be wrong, we saw it in Molly, and Harry at times, though Eb managed to drill enough morals into his head that he usually checks himself, often only just.  Eb understood this and this is why he didn't teach anymore magic to young Harry, that he could learn later on his own.  What was important was to drill the whys of magic, when we first meet Harry in Storm Front, this is what he talks about and why magic shouldn't be abused by going to the black with it.  But could Eb have been as successful with Molly?  Or had she already passed the point of no return?  A huge difference between Molly and Harry, Molly had no magical training, she realized she had a talent, without knowing the Laws of Magic or the harm she could inflict, she used it with the best of intentions with disastrous consequences. All Molly knew of magic is what she saw her idol Harry do with it, when she discovered her talent, she had a loaded gun but no idea how deadly using it could be.  Harry in contrast was an apprentice for many years, he knew all the basics at the age of sixteen, Justin however taught him nothing about the Laws of Magic or the morality of it.  So Harry's task with Molly was not only teaching her the morality of magic, but magic. 

[g33k]

...  Langtry apparently really believes that warlocks always backslide, sooner or later.  From that POV, killing Molly early could save the lives and/or sanity of multiple potential victims later. 

I don't think Langtry believes that it's an "always" just "mostly" or "almost always."

But that you can never be sure, and it's not worth the risk.

It's much like the infamous "trolley problem" from moral philosophy.  Langtry is always going to throw that switch, kill the one person (who is probably warlock-bound) to save the many whom that warlock would have killed.  And if, on a (very) few occasions, that person he killed would not have gone warlock...

Well.
That's regrettable, to be sure.
VERY regretable.

But in the balance-ledger, he has saved hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions (because that's how bad a rogue warlock can get).  Arthur Langtry is OK making this choice.

[Mira]

I don't think Langtry believes that it's an "always" just "mostly" or "almost always."

But that you can never be sure, and it's not worth the risk.

Or in other words Langtry is for throwing the baby out with the bath water, which isn't really the best solution.  However since he doesn't have enough resources to deal with either the bath water, baby, or the tub at the moment, he is okay with sacrificing the baby.

It's much like the infamous "trolley problem" from moral philosophy.  Langtry is always going to throw that switch, kill the one person (who is probably warlock-bound) to save the many whom that warlock would have killed.  And if, on a (very) few occasions, that person he killed would not have gone warlock...

Or the other side of that coin is he is perhaps killing the future Merlin, Eb, or some other wizard who may have gone on to save just as many lives or more than the potential warlock would have killed..

Well.
That's regrettable, to be sure.
VERY regretable.

But in the balance-ledger, he has saved hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions (because that's how bad a rogue warlock can get).  Arthur Langtry is OK making this choice.

Maybe he is, but mistakes are made.. Easy to predict the future if a young warlock slips though the cracks, but not so easy to predict the future of what an innocent young wizard might have become if he or she had not been executed.. That's the hell of it.

[LordDresden2]

Yes.

Langtree might not be wrong, we saw it in Molly, and Harry at times, though Eb managed to drill enough morals into his head that he usually checks himself, often only just. 

We should note, too, that at the end of Battleground, Ramirez accuses Harry of having slid off the path and toward monster-ness, without even realizing it.  That his bondage to Winter makes him a proto-monster, more or less. Before we assume Ramirez is wrong, we should remember that Harry, under the influence of the Winter Knight mantle, came extremely close to murdering Rudolph.  If Sanya and Butters hadn't been there to save Harry, he probably would have.  I remember, too, that afterward the Winter Mantle was able to annul the pain of all Harry's wounds...except the burn from where he touched Butter's Sword.

Harry has a choice, he still has his free will, even with the Mantle.  But that automatically doesn't mean he'll make the right choice.  Harry came very close to proving Ramirez right in Battleground.