Author Topic: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.  (Read 4342 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2024, 05:11:19 AM »
Just to nail down one small point.  To a fairly high degree, we can be certain that no one else on the Council knows that the Gate Keeper has the means to detect Nemesis.  From Cold Days:

Harry -  "Steel," I said.
Rashid - "Pardon?" he asked.
Harry  - "Your, uh, other eye. It was steel before."
Rashid - "I'm sure it looked like steel," he said. "The disguise is necessary when I'm not here."
Harry  - "Your job is so secret, your false eye gets a disguise?" I asked. "Guess I see why you miss Council meetings."

When he is playing his role as a member of the Senior Council, the Gate Keeper does not share much information, unless he feels the need to do so.


Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2024, 02:47:38 PM »
Just to nail down one small point.  To a fairly high degree, we can be certain that no one else on the Council knows that the Gate Keeper has the means to detect Nemesis.  From Cold Days:

Harry -  "Steel," I said.
Rashid - "Pardon?" he asked.
Harry  - "Your, uh, other eye. It was steel before."
Rashid - "I'm sure it looked like steel," he said. "The disguise is necessary when I'm not here."
Harry  - "Your job is so secret, your false eye gets a disguise?" I asked. "Guess I see why you miss Council meetings."

When he is playing his role as a member of the Senior Council, the Gate Keeper does not share much information, unless he feels the need to do so.

Exactly, and the same goes for Harry.. Rashid also confirmed that. page 341 Cold Days

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" I will do what I can.  If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council, which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to--and that isn't much.

Quote
They didn't test her in the DuMorne aftermath, no (when they collected Harry); they never connected her with DuMorne; she only appeared on-scene much later.

Warden Ramirez tested Elaine, out in LA.  Harry called to "check up on her bona fides" & Carlos confirmed it.

She wasn't quite up to WC standards... but she was close, and recognizably well-trained in WC fundamentals.

He joked that if the Rampire War continued its horrible attrition, they might have to lower their standards a little bit -- just to keep WC numbers up -- and she'd be in.
But she faked it so well, she fell off the radar. 

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2024, 10:14:47 PM »
...
But she faked it so well, she fell off the radar. 

I'm pretty sure she didn't.
They're just not doing anything active about her, pursuing her as a suspect, or issuing any warnings; she'll get no "official" attention/effort until they have some reason to take action.

The WC is the sort to keep meticulous records, and an "almost, but not quite" wizard is well worth noticing and remembering, but that "hands off... unless" policy has always been the WC/Warden MO... and beyond even that, their resources got severely depleted during the war with the Ramps, and that was only... what, 4-5 years before the PT/BG duology?

Also:  Carlos is kind of a horndog, and I'm certain he recalls Elaine very well (as I recall, there were hints she flirted a bit to help distract him from noticing her abilities).

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2024, 12:08:26 PM »
I'm pretty sure she didn't.
They're just not doing anything active about her, pursuing her as a suspect, or issuing any warnings; she'll get no "official" attention/effort until they have some reason to take action.

The WC is the sort to keep meticulous records, and an "almost, but not quite" wizard is well worth noticing and remembering, but that "hands off... unless" policy has always been the WC/Warden MO... and beyond even that, their resources got severely depleted during the war with the Ramps, and that was only... what, 4-5 years before the PT/BG duology?

Also:  Carlos is kind of a horndog, and I'm certain he recalls Elaine very well (as I recall, there were hints she flirted a bit to help distract him from noticing her abilities).

The problem with that theory is Mort has been able to keep off the radar as well.  As Harry noted in Ghost Story he is way more talented than the Council gives him credit for, so he is left alone by them.  If Elaine was successful in distracting Carlos from noticing her talents by flirting with him, he either isn't a very good Warden, or Elaine is very good at fooling him and from there the Council, thank you for making my point.

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2024, 04:37:39 PM »
The problem with that theory is Mort has been able to keep off the radar as well.  As Harry noted in Ghost Story he is way more talented than the Council gives him credit for, so he is left alone by them ...
Mort was almost-washed-up, he had lost faith in himself, his values, his worth.  His abilities had declined a lot; we don't know how good he actually was in the pre-Storm Front years, or how closely the WC was (or wasn't) monitoring him then.  I don't think the WC has noticed yet that Mort has "bounced back" from the brink.  And of course, because he's limited to ectomancy (rather than having a broader array of wizardly abilities) the WC is always going to consider him  a "lesser" talent.

... If Elaine was successful in distracting Carlos from noticing her talents by flirting with him, he either isn't a very good Warden, or Elaine is very good at fooling him and from there the Council ...
Carlos is actually a pretty good warden, but he has some specific weaknesses in regards a "pretty face" (Harry's got some of his own (by design):  Butcher's writing to the "Noir Detective" tropes, and the "femme fatale" is supposed to be a weakness for our protagonist).

Above and beyond that, though:  Elaine has (by Harry's testimony) always been better than him at elements of style & grace, at subtler casting etc... and then she went to summerfae finishing-school where you just gotta know that "subtlety" & "deception" & "flirting" were some of the most-reinforced lessons!

Poor young Carlos... well, as the saying goes, "he never stood a chance."

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2024, 07:36:05 PM »
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Mort was almost-washed-up, he had lost faith in himself, his values, his worth.  His abilities had declined a lot; we don't know how good he actually was in the pre-Storm Front years, or how closely the WC was (or wasn't) monitoring him then.  I don't think the WC has noticed yet that Mort has "bounced back" from the brink.  And of course, because he's limited to ectomancy (rather than having a broader array of wizardly abilities) the WC is always going to consider him  a "lesser" talent.

That's what Mort wanted the Council to believe if I remember correctly in Ghost Story, because Harry believed what you are saying also but found out it wasn't true.  I am not saying you are wrong because it's been a while, I need to go back and read, but up to my earlobes at the moment and just don't have the time.  However I seem to remember Harry being a bit shocked that Mort was as talented as he is.
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Carlos is actually a pretty good warden, but he has some specific weaknesses in regards a "pretty face" (Harry's got some of his own (by design):  Butcher's writing to the "Noir Detective" tropes, and the "femme fatale" is supposed to be a weakness for our protagonist).
Not saying that Carlos isn't a good Warden, but if he is that easily swayed, he isn't..
Quote
Above and beyond that, though:  Elaine has (by Harry's testimony) always been better than him at elements of style & grace, at subtler casting etc... and then she went to summerfae finishing-school where you just gotta know that "subtlety" & "deception" & "flirting" were some of the most-reinforced lessons!

What has that got to do with it?  Carlos maybe a decent Warden, but he shouldn't be commanding the North American Wardens if he is that easily snookered...  Which actually fits with when he first meet him, he is barely out of his apprenticeship and he is made a commander?  Harry as well for that matter.. Just speaks to how many Wardens died in the war against the Reds and the Council was appointing Wardens not really ready to fill the more responsible jobs.

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2024, 01:11:17 AM »
That's what Mort wanted the Council to believe if I remember correctly in Ghost Story, because Harry believed what you are saying also but found out it wasn't true...
Grave Peril Mort was the has-been.
By the time of Ghost Story, Mort had very-much turned his life (and his magic) around.

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2024, 01:37:55 AM »
Grave Peril Mort was the has-been.
By the time of Ghost Story, Mort had very-much turned his life (and his magic) around.

Or he was faking it during Grave Peril. 

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2024, 05:13:06 AM »
Or he was faking it during Grave Peril.

Harry's a decently-keen observer.

I don't think Mort could have successfully pulled off a "my whole life is spiraling downward" fake (which is where he was, in GP).

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2024, 10:46:09 AM »
Harry's a decently-keen observer.

I don't think Mort could have successfully pulled off a "my whole life is spiraling downward" fake (which is where he was, in GP).

Harry had a lot on his plate at that time, a lot more inexperienced, and a bit more trusting in the Council's judgements.  Also Mort didn't do anymore around Harry than what was expected of a low level wizard, so how would Harry know?

I took a minute and reread that part of Gave Peril.  A couple of things stood out, one is Harry calls Mort a "con man."  And yeah, Mort is doing that and claims to have lost his powers and Harry believes him.. Yet for a guy who has no "powers" Mort seems to know a heck of a lot about what is currently going on in the spirit world.  Yeah, Mort is an excellent con man, so could he successfully pull an "I lost my powers," con on Harry?  Absolutely.  Harry also had a chance to engage Mort in a soul gaze, but avoided it. That isn't to say that by the time Ghost Story comes around he might be a little out of practice, but what Mort does do proves that he has always been a powerful wizard.. However what he likes to do and what the Council and the Laws of Magic allow is a very thin tightrope, and he has successfully walked it for years.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2024, 03:57:47 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2024, 04:45:12 PM »
Harry had a lot on his plate at that time ...
Harry always has "a lot more on his plate" during the case files; Jim has said they're  generally "the worst day(s) of Harry's year."

But GP was only when we (the readers) first meet Morty -- Harry was going to see Mort because he already knew Mort; so Mort's "introductory scene" wasn't a "cold read" for Harry, but an update on what was already familiar.

... and a bit more trusting in the Council's judgements ...
Harry was still having as little to do with the WC as he possibly could; I don't think he had access to their "profiles of minor talents" reports (nor would he likely have paid much attention to them, given his experience of how the WC was treating/evaluating Harry himself).

It's pretty clear in GP that Harry's opinion of Mort is based upon Harry's own experiences & observations; but also upon Mort's prior achievements (he had written books on ghosts &c).
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"Twenty years ago, you were a pretty damned good investigator...
And now what? ... How many times do you actually get to contact a spirit?  One time in ten? One in twenty?...
You play on [peoples'] grief to take them for all you can... but you don't like what you're doing.  If you did, your powers wouldn't have faded like they did."
-- Grave Peril, chapter 10 (though there's also a bit on Morty near the end of Ch.9)
Mort has been making a living running seances... but mostly faking it (classic pseudo-psychic con-artist stuff).

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2024, 05:01:57 PM »
...  A couple of things stood out, one is Harry calls Mort a "con man."  And yeah, Mort is doing that and claims to have lost his powers and Harry believes him.. Yet for a guy who has no "powers" ...
Not that he has no powers, but vastly-lessened powers.
The Morty of GP wouldn't have held against Corpsetaker for even a few minutes, let alone days.

... Yeah, Mort is an excellent con man, so could he successfully pull an "I lost my powers," con on Harry?  Absolutely ...
Twenty years of faking a spiral of fading powers, though?
Why would he be doing that?

Early-series Mort was a coward (just like early Butters, FWIW).  But they got better.  Mortimer Lindquist also got his powers back; in large part by doing the right thing & redeeming his own self-image, but also flexing the "magical muscle" and giving it a workout.

... That isn't to say that by the time Ghost Story comes around he might be a little out of practice, but what Mort does do proves that he has always been a powerful wizard ...
On the contrary:  by the time of Ghost Story, Mortimer Lindquist is working daily and deeply.
His home is a spiritual fortress.
He is back to being a powerful ectomancer.

Offline Mira

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2024, 09:35:34 PM »
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Not that he has no powers, but vastly-lessened powers.
The Morty of GP wouldn't have held against Corpsetaker for even a few minutes, let alone days.

  I'm not so sure of that.  We have no real proof either way.  It's kind of like Mac, just a mild mannered bar tender, keeps out of most things, but look at him with the sight, and you will burn your eyes out.

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Twenty years of faking a spiral of fading powers, though?
Why would he be doing that?
Because he wants to be left alone to do his own thing.
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Early-series Mort was a coward (just like early Butters, FWIW).  But they got better.  Mortimer Lindquist also got his powers back; in large part by doing the right thing & redeeming his own self-image, but also flexing the "magical muscle" and giving it a workout.

But he couldn't have gotten them back unless they were always there in the first place.
Quote
On the contrary:  by the time of Ghost Story, Mortimer Lindquist is working daily and deeply.
His home is a spiritual fortress.
He is back to being a powerful ectomancer.
But why? 

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2024, 08:17:40 PM »
The WC is in my mind, most fans and in its own mind the elite of the elite. I tend to view them as the Justice league/ Avengers (comic versions) of the magical humans. Like both groups every hero can join but only the elite tend to get the invte.
Put another way.
Mort is powerful yes but only in his specific field. A wizard of the WC has to be an omniglot.Someone who is good at everything, and excellent at most things.
Though out the series Harry sees a supernatural being do something then claims that if he wanted he could learn the thing and propably replicate it. Mort on the other hand does not have that option. His stuck has an ectomancer an excellent one propably the best but an ectomancer non the less. Harry and any WC Wizard can learn the basics get good enough to do most of the stuff mort can do butnot as good as mort but good enough.
The WC is short sighted in not making use of specialists like mort and anna ( thenfire mancer in skingame b4 she was a warlock) as resourceful allies to help train them in the areas they need to get good at or to train, recruit and guard other magical humans.

Offline g33k

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Re: Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2024, 12:40:40 AM »
  I'm not so sure of that.  We have no real proof either way ...
We have no proof positive, no.  But we have some indicators...

The fact that he chose to live an increasingly-impoverished life, moving from being a notable multi-book author, to running hokey seances as a con-man, with cheap plastic gargoyles in the yard is one such.

Lack of any Bob-testimony / Harrry-awareness is another:  Harry sent Bob out  "scouting for info" quite a few times, that we saw; I presume he did so off-screen, too.  Bob would certainly have noticed -- sooner or later -- if Mort was operating (up through Grave Peril) a spiritual redoubt as formidable as the one in Ghost Story, and reported as much to Harry.

Harry himself has other investigative magical resources, as well; he won't just be looking with his  eyeballs.  The idea that an ectomancer the caliber of GS-Mort could have been operating under Harry's nose & in his back yard for years seems wholly unbelievable...  Mort's a powerful ectomancer, but there are a great many magical disciplines where he's blind and ignorant... and Harry isn't.  Hard for Mort to effectively block what he can't detect / doesn't understand!

But he couldn't have gotten them back unless they were always there in the first place.
But why? 

Yes, he had some  power; it faded, and was lessened... but never faded entirely out of his reach.
Note that Charity's power is gone gone, by way of neglect (intentional dis-use); it isn't coming back.

Why?
Why was Mort working so hard, being so effective?

I think it was because of Harry.  Harry seems more-able than most to uplift those around him, redirect them in better ways.  Mort seems to have benefited.