Warden of Demonreach: Dragoncon lore-dump or retcon??!?

[g33k]

Is this a Word of Jim?  If so, could you direct me to it?

It is, I'm virtually certain (I have read the section repeatedly).
But now I cannot find it.     

[Mira]

It is, I'm virtually certain (I have read the section repeatedly).
But now I cannot find it.     

 

[Tinfoil hat]

Harry did blunder his way into it.. However it is stupid on the part of the Senior Council to think that to be Warden of the island would be Villain in Chief..  The post has dangers because it carries with it great power as well as responsibility, both can corrupt the person holding it, but that doesn't make them a villain, and to let the post remain vacant for all those years seems rather stupid.

Think about this defense in international geopolitics: Nations of the world trust me l, im only making these nuclear weapons for self defense.  Trust me. Even friendly Nations think u are full of shit.
I think becoming the Warden is  like this. Even your friends will be looking at you sideways. After all that's too much power in one hand. Even if you trust the guy. On a side note one of my theories is that talking to the inmates is dangerous and can corrupt you. So maybe a previous Warden ( Kemmler) was corrupted bh the place and everyone is now scared of risking another kemmler. After all if one guy can be corrupted why not the next

[apgrey]

  I don't there is a WOJ about the island corrupting its Warden.  I think what applies here is the warning Rashid gave Harry in TurnCoat.  That also is the basis of the Council thinking Harry blundered his way into becoming Warden.

APG

[Mira]

  I don't there is a WOJ about the island corrupting its Warden.  I think what applies here is the warning Rashid gave Harry in TurnCoat.  That also is the basis of the Council thinking Harry blundered his way into becoming Warden.

APG

Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person.  I do agree talking to the inmates is dangerous, also the temptation of trying to harness the power in that apparently very powerful ley line.  However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust?  After all they have a designated assassin don't they?  Someone authorized to use black magic for cripe sake!

[g33k]

Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person ...

No; I think "blundering into it" is prima facie evidence of being underqualified.  In  the normal course of things, they'd be right:  Harry's like a plumber who has wandered into being the only engineer at a nuclear power plant.

... However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust? ...

I suspect it's because -- from the WC's perspective -- it's too horrible & dangerous a job to force someone to take.  But I'm not sure.

[seanham]

Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person.  I do agree talking to the inmates is dangerous, also the temptation of trying to harness the power in that apparently very powerful ley line.  However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust?  After all they have a designated assassin don't they?  Someone authorized to use black magic for cripe sake!

I've always thought it strange that they don't have someone as the "sitting" Warden who was the Warden but knew never to go to the island but could sit on the Title. What if the fear is less about corruption and more about ability? We know the Warden can lock anyone or anything up and that the Warden can let it out with specific orders/under his control. Maybe the Senior Council (and other parties) are afraid of someone taking the Wardenship then putting their cronies in a cell and releasing them as his puppets.

Take the Senior Council, they know the island is a threat and so has Eb take up as Warden. Ten years later The Merlin tries to kill Harry, Eb to protect Harry puts The Merlin in prison, then releases him with the order to not kill Harry. The Merlin becomes the puppet of Eb, so Eb basically controls the council. I wonder if this is the true fear of the SC that someone could infect their minds and control them. We saw how much Peabody could get done with his ink and I'd assume Deamonreach is more powerful than ink.

Obviously, the big issue with this is the geographical location of the island which is why I have speculated before there must be a way to expand the range or something to be able to cast a wider net. But there is no evidence I am aware of supporting this potential.

[Mira]

No; I think "blundering into it" is prima facie evidence of being underqualified.  In  the normal course of things, they'd be right:  Harry's like a plumber who has wandered into being the only engineer at a nuclear power plant.

  Actually it isn't evidence all that Harry was under qualified, all it says is that he didn't know the consequences of full ramifications of his act.  He didn't know at the time that the prison existed, or that his act would immediately draft him as Warden .  That's the blundering part, however the very fact that Harry was able to pull it off says he has the skills and talent to do the job..  The question becomes and was both brought up by Eb and Rashid, does he have the judgement to handle the job?  So far he has shown for the most part that he has.  It isn't at all like the person who comes and fixing your plumbing suddenly running a  nuclear power plant knowing nothing about nuclear energy. 

I suspect it's because -- from the WC's perspective -- it's too horrible & dangerous a job to force someone to take.  But I'm not sure.

So it's better to leave no one in charge? 

[peterwiggin94]

I completely understand why they might want no one in charge. With no one in charge, the island can't defend itself as well because there's no wizard directing or improving its defense but no one can easily release the prisoners either. Harry could release them all if he wanted to. I think that the island is just as safe overall because Harry makes it harder to break prisoners out using an army but easier to break them out using subterfuge, blackmail, or similar. Everyone knows that Harry would commit genocide to save his kid so they could reasonably guess that he'd release a prisoner to save her too. If the Formor really want Ethniu back, they have to know that kidnapping Maggie and demanding Harry to release might actually work.

[Mira]

I completely understand why they might want no one in charge. With no one in charge, the island can't defend itself as well because there's no wizard directing or improving its defense but no one can easily release the prisoners either. Harry could release them all if he wanted to. I think that the island is just as safe overall because Harry makes it harder to break prisoners out using an army but easier to break them out using subterfuge, blackmail, or similar. Everyone knows that Harry would commit genocide to save his kid so they could reasonably guess that he'd release a prisoner to save her too. If the Formor really want Ethniu back, they have to know that kidnapping Maggie and demanding Harry to release might actually work.

I don't know if it is that simple.. Actually when Harry did in the Red Court it wasn't just to save his daughter, it was to save himself and his grandfather as well.  What he did was merely reversing the spell that the Red King wanted to use to destroy him and his grandfather by killing little Maggie.. What the Red King hadn't counted on was Harry figuring it out and that Maggie's mother Susan would be willing to sacrifice herself as she was becoming the youngest of the Red Court vamps to save her daughter. 

In chapter 39 of Turn Coat, Rashid has closely questioned Harry about what he knows about the island.  Why it is there, it's purpose, etc., it becomes very clear that Harry is totally ignorant of any of that.  All Harry knows is it's affect on people/beings and thinks it is a way to level the playing field for someone who he thinks is innocent, that is Morgan.  Rashid also explains that the island is the source of the powerful leyline. However though he says it is a useful question, Rashid doesn't answer that question.  We don't know if he knows or not.

On page 299, Harry reveals to Rashid that he has made it his sanctum.  Rashid asks him how? He further tells Harry that he doesn't know what he has done, and that he will pay a price for what he has done.

Then he gives Harry some advice; bolding mine

"First," he said, "do not tap into the power of this place's well.  You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."

The important bit here I think are the last words in the sentence, "without being altered by it."  Which implies to me that others have tried and were altered,or corrupted by it, which could very well have happened to Kemmler, he tried, wasn't ready, and was corrupted and altered by it.

Then on 379 in his journal Eb writes that it is quite clear that Harry had no clue what the real purpose of the island is.  Then more interestingly;

I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a higher power of some sort, attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it.

This to me suggests that Eb does think that the island needs a Warden, that up until that time the Council has pulled back from appointing one either out of ignorance, or fear.. Fear perhaps that by appointing another Warden, they would be creating another Kemmler.

He goes on to say what Rashid said that he didn't think warning Harry about the dangers of the island would do any good.  Eb says that Rashid is a good judge of people, but that he isn't sure he is right.  Is Eb saying that Rashid is saying Harry can handle the job? Or is Eb afraid that Harry cannot? Eb says he trusts Harry's judgement, goes on to say that he is one of three or four wizards who could handle that mantle.. But then he goes on to doubt himself, saying he trusts Harry's judgement, but then he also trusted Maggie.  Not so sure about him really trusting his daughter though, I don't think he did,

[g33k]

  Actually it isn't evidence all that Harry was under qualified ... however the very fact that Harry was able to pull it off says he has the skills and talent to do the job ...

It's really quite necessary to ask, from whose point of view?

Demonreach has its own standards.  Obviously, Harry fulfilled them.
I might speculate:  others know there's an Apocalypse coming, so it seems likely Demonreach knows, too.  Did the entity accept Harry's effort at a lower bar, because it was so critical to get even a mediocre Warden over none at all?  I'll assert it's a reasonable question, to which we have no answer (and very little evidence).

And, of course, the White Council has its standards.  Demonreach (and its Warden) are no part of the White Council; Warden of the Well isn't a Senior Council title, nor yet an unofficial role within the WC (the way "the Blackstaff" is an unofficial role).  The Council isn't even always aware of the Warden.  And yet, they have Opinions!

From the WC perspective, then, Harry's the plumber in the nuke-plant.  Not everyone shares that opinion... Ebenezer thought it was a good idea; Rashid is... mmm... cautiously optimistic?  Others find it an act of hopeless incompetence:  becoming Warden unwittingly, what more proof of incompetence do you need?  And a few, I suspect, still harbor a suspicion that they are seeing Warlock Dresden^(tm) making (yet another) power-play.

... So it's better to leave no one in charge?

I think, from the WC perspective, this is the case.
Because a Warden can release the entities in the island, and there are a lot of horrible (and horrifically powerful) entities down there, gathered over the course of millenia.  I think a bad-guy Warden is just about the worst scenario they can envision, far worse than none at all.

I think they see the Warden's job as being bad enough that nobody "should" want it; that the only reason anybody would want it, is to do  Evil Villain Shenanigans.

[Mira]

It's really quite necessary to ask, from whose point of view?

  From the island's  point of view.  Harry had no clue what he was auditioning to become Warden of the island.  For starters I doubt that many wizards step on the island ready to perform the ritual that Harry did to make it his sanctum.  Fewer still I imagine pass the test, we've seen what Alfred is capable of, from it's point of view, Harry passed the test.  If Harry had failed I doubt he would have ever left the island, alive or dead.

Demonreach has its own standards.  Obviously, Harry fulfilled them.
I might speculate:  others know there's an Apocalypse coming, so it seems likely Demonreach knows, too.  Did the entity accept Harry's effort at a lower bar, because it was so critical to get even a mediocre Warden over none at all?  I'll assert it's a reasonable question, to which we have no answer (and very little evidence).

I seriously doubt that, remember Harry also included a drop of soulfire in the mix, no other wizard that we know of so far can do that.  Eb and Rashid both confirmed that Harry was up to the task, Eb said that there were only three or four other wizards that he felt could pull it off.  However I will concede that this is only the first part of the test.  Now Harry has to realize he isn't ready to draw power from the well yet, that is the final and most important test, will he be able to resist the temptation? Harry did manage to imprison a Titian didn't he, also in the process resisted a psychic assault from her as well.  So no, I don't think the island lowered it's standards for the sake of...

And, of course, the White Council has its standards.  Demonreach (and its Warden) are no part of the White Council; Warden of the Well isn't a Senior Council title, nor yet an unofficial role within the WC (the way "the Blackstaff" is an unofficial role).  The Council isn't even always aware of the Warden.  And yet, they have Opinions!

True, the title of Warden of Demonreach is a mantle not unlike the Winter Knight's mantle.  Oh I believe that Blackstaff is an official title, just not one spoken aloud.  I also believe that the Senior Council is very aware of the Warden of the island, that's why the Merlin wanted Harry put under surveillance as soon as he heard about it.  It is indeed a dangerous mantle, and if I am right about Kemmler and how he was corrupted, understandable.

From the WC perspective, then, Harry's the plumber in the nuke-plant.  Not everyone shares that opinion... Ebenezer thought it was a good idea; Rashid is... mmm... cautiously optimistic?  Others find it an act of hopeless incompetence:  becoming Warden unwittingly, what more proof of incompetence do you need?  And a few, I suspect, still harbor a suspicion that they are seeing Warlock Dresden(tm) making (yet another) power-play.

Your analogy is totally wrong, and if that is the perspective of the White Council it is totally wrong.  A plumber can enter a nuke plant, but he cannot run it, or know where to begin to run it.. Harry has proven that he can manage the island, upgrade the defenses and imprison monsters, he is no plumber running a nuke-plant.

[g33k]

From the island's point of view ... 

But the conversation on this point, broadly, was about the White Council's POV:  it's they who have the "Harry blundered into it" perspective.

I don't think Demonreach is capable of judging candidates' "preparation," only their success (or failure), because it's so limited/unaware away from the island.

I think it's reasonable to discuss either/both perspectives; but I think which should be clear when doing so.

... Harry also included a drop of soulfire in the mix, no other wizard that we know of so far can do that ...

True.
But we know (per WoJ) that all the Senior Council (and comparable-level senior wizards) have multiple secrets and hidden powers / hole-cards they can call upon in extremis.  I think it's reasonable to suspect that Harry's not the only wizard with soulfire...

We've no proof there is any other(s), but we've also no proof there isn't/aren't.

... Eb said that there were only three or four other wizards that he felt could pull it off ...

Which is the passage you meant?

If it's the "Eb's Journal" scene, that seemed to me more about Eb having faith in Harry's morals & ethics, not the technical prowess & raw power to "pull if off."

[Mira]

But the conversation on this point, broadly, was about the White Council's POV:  it's they who have the "Harry blundered into it" perspective.

Perhaps, however if they felt that way, at that point they could have done something about it, but they didn't. Remember Harry had been wounded, nearly bled out and in the infirmary after Morgan's trial.  Perfect time to actually do something, they did nothing.  No one even questioned him about it, none of them, save the warnings from Rashid about using the Ley line at the beginning, said a word about it to Harry.  You could say Ed did, but that was indirect, via his journal that just happened to be open accidentally on purpose for Harry to see.. Yet no one said a word about what in the hell being Warden of the island meant or why it was a mantle. At that point the only warden job Harry knew about was for the White Council.   So how do you explain that?

I don't think Demonreach is capable of judging candidates' "preparation," only their success (or failure), because it's so limited/unaware away from the island.

It's about talent, that can't be prepped for, Harry apparently had the talent. Talent gets you the job, the rest is on the job training... Without the talent, no amount of training is going to make up the difference.  We don't know if a prospective Warden can fail and be kicked off the island.  You can train Simone Biles to be the best gymnast in the world because she was blessed with amazing talent, where as I can blunder into a gymnastic class and be lucky to get through it without breaking my neck no matter how hard I trained... As the coach said in "Chariots of Fire,"  "you can't put in, what God has left out.."  It's also true in training search and rescue dogs, many dogs are candidates and are trained from the time they are puppies, but many nice puppies are also washed out of programs because they simply weren't born with that combo of drive, intelligence, and bravery.

I think it's reasonable to discuss either/both perspectives; but I think which should be clear when doing so.

I don't think you were clear when you asked the question, you simply asked the question. 

True.
But we know (per WoJ) that all the Senior Council (and comparable-level senior wizards) have multiple secrets and hidden powers / hole-cards they can call upon in extremis.  I think it's reasonable to suspect that Harry's not the only wizard with soulfire...

I don't think it is reasonable to believe that nor is there evidence for it.  Actually the evidence is to the contrary, I doubt that archangels hand out the gift to just anybody.  We know Harry was gifted with it because he threw off the influence of a Shadow of one of the Fallen, a  very rare accomplishment.   From the reaction of his foes who are able to recognize it when Harry has used it.  They were surprised that he had been given it, why?  Because it isn't something commonly gifted..  Think about it, it is an angelic power, not even the likes of Michael, Shiro, Sanya or other Holy Knights were gifted with it..  Odin is mentioned to have it, but he is considered a god, and he isn't a White Council Wizard.

Which is the passage you meant?

If it's the "Eb's Journal" scene, that seemed to me more about Eb having faith in Harry's morals & ethics, not the technical prowess & raw power to "pull if off."

The page in Turn Coat is sighted, 379, check it out yourself, not hard to figure out given my context..  Yes, it is about Eb having faith in Harry's morals and ethics, however all of that is moot in terms of doing the job if Harry didn't have the talent or the skills to do the job.. Simply put, he never would have gotten his foot in the door to begin with, without the talent.. So very clearly Eb was talking about the combo of ethics and talent, the mantle of Warden of the island must have that combo or it will be disaster.

[LordDresden2]

Blundering into it doesn't make one automatically bad at whatever the job is, or a bad person.  I do agree talking to the inmates is dangerous, also the temptation of trying to harness the power in that apparently very powerful ley line.  However in the light of all of that, why didn't the Senior Council make sure there was a Warden in charge of the place they could trust?  After all they have a designated assassin don't they?  Someone authorized to use black magic for cripe sake!

]

We don't really know, but we can speculate.

For one thing, the position of THE Warden is fraught.  I suspect that it's kind of like appointing a new Blackstaff, only worse.  The Senior Council would want to pick someone with serious chops, it's not the sort of job you'd want to give to a newbie (like Harry!).  Also, you'd want someone stable, and trustworthy, and at the same time maybe not one of the oldest, most powerful Wizards either.  You'd want to know that you could take him out if you need to.

And presumably whoever the SC picks has to be acceptable to Alfred, too.

So it's going to be a tricky pick.  They'd probably prefer to leave the job empty rather than risk appointing someone they didn't trust...and we should remember that Wizards live for centuries and the SC are usually among the oldest of them.  The Council, as an organization, is almost 2000 years old in its current form, and older yet in previous incarnations.  They take the long view.

To us, the job of THE Warden (or the Blackstaff, or any position except maybe the Gatekeeper) being unfilled for 25 or 75 years might seem like a long time.  But to the Senior Council it might seem like a modest interim while they pick a new Warden suitable for the job.

Probably most of the time, they'd be right.  It's just that right now the world is entering one of the Wizard crises that come along every now and then.

If the island was Wardenless from 1961 to 2009 (assuming that was when Harry took over), that's a gap of less than half a century.  The Council might very well have been in the process of vetting possible replacements.  If Kemmler was the last one, that would make them doubly cautious about picking the right Wizard for the job, I'd tend to think.

Ebenezar's writings suggest that he thinks Harry might have been a good choice if he was older and more experienced, but he's not sure.  He saw how Margaret started out promising and went off the rails, and there's a lot of his mother in Harry.

Langtry, OTOH, would probably have been passionately opposed to the idea of Harry as THE Warden.  "One Kemmler is enough."

A lot of the stuff the White Council, and esp. the Senior Council, does makes sense if you remember the time perspectives they operate under.