Warden of Demonreach: Dragoncon lore-dump or retcon??!?

[Mira]

 Again, my question, how did such a despicable character become Warden?  Sounds like he should have been one of the inmates.

[g33k]

... Again, my question, how did such a despicable character become Warden?  Sounds like he should have been one of the inmates.

Kemmler was a mortal wizard, strong-enough & skilled-enough to pass the warden-tests.  That qualifies him.  Demonreach is largely amoral -- "despicable" is irrelevant.

If Kemmler had Darkhallow'ed, then Demonreach likely would have seen the issue rather differently...
   

[Mira]

Kemmler was a mortal wizard, strong-enough & skilled-enough to pass the warden-tests.  That qualifies him.  Demonreach is largely amoral -- "despicable" is irrelevant.

If Kemmler had Darkhallow'ed, then Demonreach likely would have seen the issue rather differently...
   

Still doesn't follow, Kemmler as Warden still would have had control of the inmates.  Another thing that doesn't fully compute, the island's defenses..  The ones that one the Warden has control of, they weren't in place when Harry took over as Warden.  Alfred was barely holding on and that's why he was so happy to have a caretaker again..  Those Warden controlled defenses remain in control even when Harry isn't on the island.. Are they automatically dropped if Harry died leaving the island vulnerable once more? 

[g33k]

Still doesn't follow, Kemmler as Warden still would have had control of the inmates ...

That's our understanding, yes.
I confess:  I don't have track of the WoJ (or canonical cite) which says this.

But AFAIK the inmates are still subject to (as yet unknown) specific rules of Demonreach.  It's in BG, I think, where Harry discovered that Alfred does stuff outside of the Warden's orders/control/perception; I expect that brief reveal will prove important later!

...  Another thing that doesn't fully compute, the island's defenses..  The ones that one the Warden has control of, they weren't in place when Harry took over as Warden.  Alfred was barely holding on and that's why he was so happy to have a caretaker again..  Those Warden controlled defenses remain in control even when Harry isn't on the island.. Are they automatically dropped if Harry died leaving the island vulnerable once more?

I don't think the island drops all those defenses instantly, no:  remember, Mab acted as if Harry's order to Demonreach (to imprison her if she killed him) was a "credible threat."

I suspect it'll be one or more funky bits of pseudo-mystical handwavium -- "a year and a day" or somesuch -- that is the duration for "final orders" of Wardens who die.

[Mira]

But AFAIK the inmates are still subject to (as yet unknown) specific rules of Demonreach.  It's in BG, I think, where Harry discovered that Alfred does stuff outside of the Warden's orders/control/perception; I expect that brief reveal will prove important later!

  I believe we do, if I remember correctly Harry was told, and I can't remember who told him at the end of Battle Ground that he could order the Titian he just jailed to do his bidding.  So if that is true for Harry, it would have been true for Kemmler as well.  And given Kemmler's record, and yeah I believe he was a bad guy, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't have taken advantage and used one of these monsters.  Unless he did try, and Alfred threw him off of the island and revoked his Warden status.  Like I said, to my feeble brain anyway, something doesn't add up for Kemmler to have been Warden when he was killed.. Or that he had ever been Warden at all.

I don't think the island drops all those defenses instantly, no:  remember, Mab acted as if Harry's order to Demonreach (to imprison her if she killed him) was a "credible threat."

Yes, it was a credible threat because Harry was Warden as of Turn Coat, he just didn't know it.  He may not have had all the poop on the defenses, but by the beginning of Cold Days, when he and Bob went to the island and Alfred explained about the prison etc, Harry understood he was Warden and that Alfred would obey his order to throw Mab in the slammer.
Mab also understood, and most likely understood since the end of Changes when she took Harry near death body to the island.  It was also mentioned at the end of Ghost Story when he woke up in Mab's arms that he was Alfred's caretaker.. I am sure Mab understood that being the island's caretaker and Warder were the same thing.

[g33k]

... something doesn't add up for Kemmler to have been Warden when he was killed.. Or that he had ever been Warden at all ...

And yet, WoJ is very clear and specific:  Kemmler was indeed Demonreach's Warden (though we don't know for how long).

[Mira]

And yet, WoJ is very clear and specific:  Kemmler was indeed Demonreach's Warden (though we don't know for how long).

 That's the thing isn't it?  Here is a tin hat theory;  Maybe Kemmler was for a time, but he was corrupted by the inmates and corrupted and tempted by the power of the leyline and used it before he was ready to handle it.  Remember the warning about the use of the leyline before he was ready that Rashid gave to Harry?  Though Rashid wasn't specific about what would happen if he used it prematurely, except they weren't good.   So if Kemmler used the leyline underestimating his own power, and not perhaps being a star born, the results were such that Alfred threw him off the island and he was no longer Warden.  However Kemmler still retained lingering strength from it to draw upon to do his necromancy and pursue his other evil pursuits.

[g33k]

... it was a credible threat because Harry was Warden as of Turn Coat, he just didn't know it ...

Harry threatened Mab with prison at the end of Cold Days, I think -- well after TC -- so Harry was very-much aware of the Warden role; but that isn't the point here.

The point is a very-short logic chain:
1/ Harry issued a command to Alfred to be carried out in the event of Harry's death.
2/ If Warden-specific stuff expires when the Warden expires, Mab wouldn't have seen the threat as credible; but she did.
3/ Therefore, at least some of Demonreach's Warden-stuff survives the death of the Warden.

Presumably, it eventually expires (if everything could be on-tap all the time, I presume it would be, and the Island's defenses wouldn't have been so lax at the time Harry became Warden); hence my speculation above, regarding "year and a day" or the like.

[Mira]

1/ Harry issued a command to Alfred to be carried out in the event of Harry's death.

  Maybe a technicality here, but still important, when the order was given, Harry was a very alive Warden.  So the order was, if Harry is killed by Mab, immediately put her in the slammer.. The order given by a very alive Warden, so I'd say it was still good, given what the order was.

2/ If Warden-specific stuff expires when the Warden expires, Mab wouldn't have seen the threat as credible; but she did.

I think it goes to wording, Harry issued the order and Alfred began to move or indicate that he was ready to move if Mab made any move against Harry. Beyond that order, everything relating to Warden orders might expire, but not in this case, because Harry was very much alive when Alfred began to act, and Mab knew it.

3/ Therefore, at least some of Demonreach's Warden-stuff survives the death of the Warden.

Not really proof because Harry was very much alive when Alfred began to act.  I imagine if Mab tried anything the effect would have been pretty instant and she would have been in the slammer before Harry hit the ground.

[g33k]

Maybe a technicality here, but still important, when the order was given, Harry was a very alive Warden.  So the order was, if Harry is killed by Mab, immediately put her in the slammer.. The order given by a very alive Warden, so I'd say it was still good, given what the order was...

Why wouldn't the Warden just give the order to keep the island at elevated defenses "until ordered otherwise" ... Then the island is defended even if the Warden dies, because the order was given by a "very-alive Warden."

We know the defenses were down when Harry took up the job... the question is, how long before a Warden-ordered elevated state of "Defcon" (or other orders) just "wear off" to normal low-grade steady-state, after the Warden dies?

Instantly?  Likely not, if we're to judge by Mab's reaction.

A few moments?  Possible, but Demonreach-powers bring a lot of psychic "inertia" to just evaporate so swiftly.

Next Sunrise?  We now a sunrise -- and successive sunrises -- can wear-away magic & wards &c.  But the defenses of the island have seen a LOT of sunrises... I don't think they're susceptible.

All this is supposition, though.  AFAIK nobody has ever pinned Jim down on any of this.

[Mira]

Why wouldn't the Warden just give the order to keep the island at elevated defenses "until ordered otherwise" ... Then the island is defended even if the Warden dies, because the order was given by a "very-alive Warden."

Apparently that didn't happen, yes, some defenses continued even without a Warden, but the island was vulnerable.  Because many of the island's defenses that only a Warden could control were down.  What underscores that, is at the beginning of Skin Game one of the things Harry said he had been doing that past year was learning what those defenses were and restoring them.

Instantly?  Likely not, if we're to judge by Mab's reaction.

  Yes likely, page502 Cold Days, Mab had just taken the gun back from Harry and was pointing it at him, bolding mine;

"I," Mab said coolly, "I am not yourservant, Dresden.  "You are mine."
"Demonreach," I said.  "If our guest pulls that trigger, take her below and keep her there."
The guardian spirit's vast shadow fell over us even though there was nothing actually casting it, and Mab's eyes widened.

  Wide eyes mean one of two things or both, 1] surprise, 2] fear..  In other words it was an "oh sh#t!" moment for Mab.  Mab knows what the island could do and knew in that instant that Harry had the power and wasn't afraid to order Alfred into action, she also knew she was doomed if she made any move against Harry.. So...
Harry goes on to warn Mab to be gentle with Molly or she will answer to him.  Mab backs off and says her usual about how pleased she was to finally have a strong knight.  But make no mistake, Alfred was in motion to carry out Harry's orders if Mab had pulled the trigger, and he would have put her in the slammer.. When Alfred did it, most likely Harry would already have been dead. 

[g33k]

... Yes likely, page502 Cold Days, Mab had just taken the gun back from Harry and was pointing it at him ...

If Warden-orders end instantly with the death of the Warden, then Mab was utterly safe:  Harry's order to Demonreach would end when Mab spattered his brains out.  Death is instantaneous, no last lingering words, no Death-Curse, and (if Warden-orders insta-expire) no more threat from Alfred.

And yet Mab acted as if the threat was real.

I conclude that -- most likely -- a Warden's orders do NOT expire instantly when the Warden expires.

I presume that they do expire -- eventually -- because the island was at "Defcon Zero" when Harry became Warden.  Even "Defcon Zero" is dangerous when it's Demonreach, of course!  But Harry needed to learn the defenses, and raise them up.

I presume that, when Harry dies, the island's elevated defenses will fade away... but I'm unclear how quickly that would happen.

[LordDresden2]

When Harry became Warden, the discussion on the Council was more along the lines of "dafukkk??!?  Did he just... stupid his way into that?  It looks a lot more like a dumb move than an Evil Genius^(tm) move."  If a more-experienced wizard, who knew more about what was what, became Warden, that'd be different.  Apparently if anyone on the Senior Council were to do it, would largely convince the others that they had found their Villain-in-Chief.  But for Harry, it just looks to them like a stupid blunder.

Is this a Word of Jim?  If so, could you direct me to it?

[Mira]

I presume that, when Harry dies, the island's elevated defenses will fade away... but I'm unclear how quickly that would happen.

  Or more likely without a human Warden guiding them they become ineffective.  Like driving a car and the steering goes out, the car may continue to go but without effective steering it's out of control.  I think Alfred had fall back defenses that it can put into place, the sense of fear and paranoia that ran off the people that tried to settle on it is an example.  However as we saw in Cold Days the island was vulnerable to determined attackers.  Harry had been named Warden by that point but he hadn't learned all he needed to know at that point for the island to be fully defended. 

[Mira]

When Harry became Warden, the discussion on the Council was more along the lines of "dafukkk??!?  Did he just... stupid his way into that?  It looks a lot more like a dumb move than an Evil Genius(tm) move."  If a more-experienced wizard, who knew more about what was what, became Warden, that'd be different.  Apparently if anyone on the Senior Council were to do it, would largely convince the others that they had found their Villain-in-Chief.  But for Harry, it just looks to them like a stupid blunder.

Harry did blunder his way into it.. However it is stupid on the part of the Senior Council to think that to be Warden of the island would be Villain in Chief..  The post has dangers because it carries with it great power as well as responsibility, both can corrupt the person holding it, but that doesn't make them a villain, and to let the post remain vacant for all those years seems rather stupid.