The Soul Gaze in Blood Rites, Something Margaret Said to Harry About Justine..

[LordDresden2]

Now that I think about it, we have proof that White Court vampires have at least some free will.  For one thing, Mab considers them 'mortal' enough to be candidates for Winter Knight.  That's pretty telling, because the whole point of the knight mantle is for the Fae Court to have a free-willed operator at their employ.

But even more so, we've seen with Thomas that if a White Court vampire uses magic, it generates techbane.  The techbane effect is specifically rooted in mortal free will.

[Mira]

Now that I think about it, we have proof that White Court vampires have at least some free will.  For one thing, Mab considers them 'mortal' enough to be candidates for Winter Knight.  That's pretty telling, because the whole point of the knight mantle is for the Fae Court to have a free-willed operator at their employ.

But even more so, we've seen with Thomas that if a White Court vampire uses magic, it generates techbane.  The techbane effect is specifically rooted in mortal free will.

 Mab thought Thomas might be mortal enough to be her Winter Knight because he was in love with Justine.  Thomas was also Margaret's son, so half mortal.  However if push came to shove, would Mab have tried to make Thomas her Knight?  Or was she speculating that Thomas could be mortal enough for the job to trap Harry into it?  Remember she was telling Harry this because she knew that Harry would want to prevent it from happening, because she really wanted Harry for the job.  Yes, the Fae cannot lie, but it says nothing the Fae not being able to speculate.  In other words, Thomas might be mortal enough, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the White Court is.

Mavra of the Black Court is able to wield magic, she isn't a mortal.. She is one of the undead, so does that make her mortal enough to have free will? 

[vincentric]

You have a free will problem.

Because if all of the monsters and half breeds don't have free will, then who or what is directing them? How do they come up with all these elaborate long-term plans? Sometimes people just make what we consider the evil choice just because that's their preference. Or are you saying that even mundane serial killers and sex offenders have lost their free will?

The monsters do have choices, but most are ruled by their base impulses. They are willful addicts, that embrace their vices for the short bursts of pleasure they get. Their leaders keep better control and only give in to the addiction in extremis. Indeed, it's considered a sign of weakness or senility among them if they begin to lose control.

[Mira]

You have a free will problem.

Because if all of the monsters and half breeds don't have free will, then who or what is directing them? How do they come up with all these elaborate long-term plans? Sometimes people just make what we consider the evil choice just because that's their preference. Or are you saying that even mundane serial killers and sex offenders have lost their free will?

No, I am not, there is a difference between an ordinary garden variety vanilla murderer and a White Court Vampire murderer.  The first mostly acts upon his or her own impulses and emotions with the free will to chose.  Where as a White Court Vampire murderer is play host to a demon.  The demon calls the shots, the Hunger demon will always satisfy it's needs first.  It can be satisfied with nibbling if it's hunger is satisfied by that, but if the demon needs more, it will take more.   The demon needs to keep the host body strong, sexually attractive, and healthy so it can survive.. Ergo, it will compel the Host to do what is required whether the Host wants to do it or not.. Thus the Host has little or no free will, it has the illusion of it.

[LordDresden2]

Mab thought Thomas might be mortal enough to be her Winter Knight because he was in love with Justine.  Thomas was also Margaret's son, so half mortal.

Most White Court vampires are the offspring of a WCV and a mortal.  Half mortal is the norm for them.

 However if push came to shove, would Mab have tried to make Thomas her Knight? 

She said she would.  Harry asked her what she would do if he had been killed, since he knew she wanted him as her knight.  She said point blank in response that she would offer it to Thomas.  Not that she would consider it or maybe, but that she would offer it to Thomas.  Straight declarative statement, and Mab always speaks the truth.

Mavra of the Black Court is able to wield magic, she isn't a mortal.. She is one of the undead, so does that make her mortal enough to have free will?

She can use magic.  You don't have to have free will to use magic, but having free will is what causes magical techbane.  That's why Fae can use magic and also use smartphones and other electronics, no techbane.  But the combination of magic and free will screws up electronics and other technology.

[Mira]

Most White Court vampires are the offspring of a WCV and a mortal.  Half mortal is the norm for them.

Does it really matter though once the Hunger demon has taken over?

She said she would.  Harry asked her what she would do if he had been killed, since he knew she wanted him as her knight.  She said point blank in response that she would offer it to Thomas.  Not that she would consider it or maybe, but that she would offer it to Thomas.  Straight declarative statement, and Mab always speaks the truth.

Does she?  Page 402 Small Favor

"He isn't mortal," I said quietly. "I thought Knights had to be mortals,""He is in love," Grimalkin mrowled for Mab.  "That makes him mortal enough for me." She tilted her head.  Though I suppose I might make him an offer, while you yet live.  He would give much to hold his love again, would he not?"

Sounds to me like Mab is messing with Harry.  Knights have to be mortal, but Mab doesn't say Thomas is mortal, she says,""he is in love that makes him mortal enough for me."  She didn't say that made Thomas a mortal, but that it was enough.. Enough for what?  A bargain, she is hinting that she could make him a mortal if he'd agree to be her Knight.  But would she actually go through all that trouble? Or would Thomas want to become that very ordinary mortal with the weak eyes that Harry saw in the soul gaze?  Seriously, would that Thomas be able to control the Winter Knight mantle?  No, Mab was talking in Fae double speak.. Not lying, but not telling the truth either.

She can use magic.  You don't have to have free will to use magic, but having free will is what causes magical techbane.  That's why Fae can use magic and also use smartphones and other electronics, no techbane.  But the combination of magic and free will screws up electronics and other technology

Does Molly still have her free will? 

[LordDresden2]

Does she?  Page 402 Small Favor
Sounds to me like Mab is messing with Harry.  Knights have to be mortal, but Mab doesn't say Thomas is mortal, she says,""he is in love that makes him mortal enough for me."  She didn't say that made Thomas a mortal, but that it was enough.. Enough for what?  A bargain, she is hinting that she could make him a mortal if he'd agree to be her Knight.  But would she actually go through all that trouble?

She said he was mortal enough for her.  Mab cannot utter a knowing falsehood.  She didn't say he 'would be mortal', she said, 'is mortal'.  That means he is already, as is, mortal enough to qualify to be Winter Knight.

Or would Thomas want to become that very ordinary mortal with the weak eyes that Harry saw in the soul gaze?

Mab can't make Thomas pure human.  According to JB, yes, she could tear the parasite right out of him, but that wouldn't leave anything recognizable behind.  She can't surgically, neatly remove the parasite and just leave the man.

Does Molly still have her free will?

That is a damned good question.  I've wondered it myself.  Is Molly Sidhe now?  How much free will does her mantle leave her?  We already know she can use cell phones now, but we lack data to determine much else.

[Mira]

She said he was mortal enough for her.  Mab cannot utter a knowing falsehood.  She didn't say he 'would be mortal', she said, 'is mortal'.  That means he is already, as is, mortal enough to qualify to be Winter Knight.

Does it?  Remember why you should never bargain with the Fae!  They never can be trusted! And what is the foundation of trust? Truth! In my opinion the point missed repeatedly by mortals is they fall for the Fae cannot lie line.  The Fae cannot lie, but that is by their own standard of what a lie is, not what a mortal's concept of a lie, is.. There are many shades to the truth, and the Fae are expert and using all of them.  Especially with Mab who can twist things to the point where no, she isn't knowingly lying, but nor is she telling the whole truth!

Mab can't make Thomas pure human.  According to JB, yes, she could tear the parasite right out of him, but that wouldn't leave anything recognizable behind.  She can't surgically, neatly remove the parasite and just leave the man.

Nor if the image Harry saw of Thomas in the soul gaze without the Hunger Demon real, would she want that frail human as her Knight.  I think not.  However unless there is a way to shut off the Hunger Demon, which Margaret may have learned that secret from Lea or Mab, the Demon would clash with the Winter Knight mantle.. In fact the Demon and the Mantle working together would make quite a monster in my opinion.  So thank you for making my point, Mab might not have been lying to Harry about that, but at the same time she has no intention of carrying out her threat of making Thomas her Knight. 

That is a damned good question.  I've wondered it myself.  Is Molly Sidhe now?  How much free will does her mantle leave her?  We already know she can use cell phones now, but we lack data to determine much else.

Another question that follows whether or not the technobane can be gotten around, if the wizard knows how.  Listen's to Wind, keeps current medically, he has attended medical school, it's a given that that means he would be around state of the art medical electronic equipment, that he cannot have blow up any time he enters a hospital or laboratory.   Actually there are few things these days in our everyday life that doesn't contain computer chips of some kind.  Given what the average cell phone has become these days, Harry walking down the street should make more pants and purses blow up than when the Israelis did it to the terrorists.  Some things sound cool, but in reality don't make a whole lot of sense.. Like I could never get beyond Harry taking cold showers during the height of winter in Chicago because he couldn't have a water heater!

[g33k]

RCV's are entirely inhuman.

They "wear a flesh mask" but it's an ectoplasmic summoning; the real creature is a rubbery batlike thing.  They only act with self-control for their own advantage (incliding self-preservation, e.g. in the face of a superior foe).

WCV's are humans; they are humans harboring "hunger demons," but they are still human, and we know this with certainty:  wizards can soulgaze WCV's (but cannot soulgaze RCV's).

[Mira]

RCV's are entirely inhuman.

They "wear a flesh mask" but it's an ectoplasmic summoning; the real creature is a rubbery batlike thing.  They only act with self-control for their own advantage (incliding self-preservation, e.g. in the face of a superior foe).

WCV's are humans; they are humans harboring "hunger demons," but they are still human, and we know this with certainty:  wizards can soulgaze WCV's (but cannot soulgaze RCV's).

So what happened to Susan's soul once she completely changed? 

[g33k]

So what happened to Susan's soul once she completely changed?

I presume she went on to What Comes Next (as one does).

[Mira]

I presume she went on to What Comes Next (as one does).

  But did she? Technically Susan didn't die, the thing she turned into was killed. Can Mab be soul gazed?  Yes, she is 99.99% Fae not, but what about that .01% that is still human?  What about the Mothers?  Supposedly they started out human eons ago, went the Lady,Queen,Mother route, did they simply lose their soul in the end?  Does that mean they are damned?  Or at least what was human to start with..

[LordDresden2]

So what happened to Susan's soul once she completely changed?

She left.  Just as she would if someone had shot her with a gun or something.  Susan died in that moment.

[LordDresden2]

  But did she? Technically Susan didn't die, the thing she turned into was killed.

No, Susan did die in the transformation.  The thing that was left afterward had access to her memories, and some of her personality was copied, but it wasn't her.  A few moments later, the newborn monster was itself slain.

If that was still Susan in any form that Harry killed, then the supercurse would have propagated along Susan's family lines.  Maggie would have been killed, along with whatever other blood kin Susan had, and the Red King and his ilk would have been fine.

When a human is converted into a Red or Black Vampire, that human is dead.  Not just metaphorically but literally, just as dead as if they had been beheaded or blown up.  What takes their place is a pure monster with their memories and a copy of parts of their personality.

That's why a newborn Black Vampire will cheerfully murder former loved ones, in spite of having the memories.  The human is gone.

Can Mab be soul gazed?  Yes, she is 99.99% Fae not, but what about that .01% that is still human?  What about the Mothers?  Supposedly they started out human eons ago, went the Lady,Queen,Mother route, did they simply lose their soul in the end?  Does that mean they are damned?  Or at least what was human to start with..

We don't have enough information to say.  JB has been kind of reticent on this point.

[LordDresden2]

Does it?  Remember why you should never bargain with the Fae!  They never can be trusted! And what is the foundation of trust? Truth! In my opinion the point missed repeatedly by mortals is they fall for the Fae cannot lie line.  The Fae cannot lie, but that is by their own standard of what a lie is, not what a mortal's concept of a lie, is.. There are many shades to the truth, and the Fae are expert and using all of them.  Especially with Mab who can twist things to the point where no, she isn't knowingly lying, but nor is she telling the whole truth!
Nor if the image Harry saw of Thomas in the soul gaze without the Hunger Demon real, would she want that frail human as her Knight.  I think not.  However unless there is a way to shut off the Hunger Demon, which Margaret may have learned that secret from Lea or Mab, the Demon would clash with the Winter Knight mantle.. In fact the Demon and the Mantle working together would make quite a monster in my opinion.  So thank you for making my point, Mab might not have been lying to Harry about that, but at the same time she has no intention of carrying out her threat of making Thomas her Knight. 

From Small Favor:

"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said.  "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."

"Nonsense," Mab said.  "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother.  He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."

That's a direct statement on Mab's part.  Not an implication, or a suggestion, or a hint, it's a direct declarative statement.  Either she means it...or she uttered a falsehood, which as far as know she simply can't.