I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)

[Mira]

I wouldn't be 100% shocked if our time line's Marcone someday ends up as a Knight.  The more so because he has a Coin, oddly enough.

 I can see that, and have said the moment he took up the coin, Marcone likes to be calling the shots, and contrary to what he might have been told, he won't be calling the shots.   However the magical power he gains by the coin maybe too great an advantage for him to give up... Or he will end up like the poor soul crucified by his choice that Harry saw in that accidental soul gaze of a Denarian back in Death Masks..

We had a discussion on the old forum about the problem of Murphy's height once, I remember.  Believability of her combat abilities was already straining because of her stated height.  Size and strength absolutely do matter in a fight, contrary to movies and TV, and Karrin's ability at aikido and related skills was already pushing the WSOD of some readers.

High martial arts skill or not, in the vast majority of cases, if a woman Karrin's size fights a man Hendrick's size and power unarmed, she is going to lose.  Badly.  Possibly cripplingly/lethally.  Training and skill and experience can offset that...some.  But only to a limited degree.

When she went up against Nic in Skin Game, he wiped the floor with her.. Now it is possible that Andruiel gave him added strength etc., but then in Peace Talks she is beating up Valkyrie and she had just removed her cast, herself only hours before.  As I said when Murphy was a tough professional cop she was great, when she left that job, the character started to go down hill.  I don't think most things Jim tried to do with the character really worked, there was no power up so in the end with every physical confrontation with the supernaturally strong etc. as she aged had many of us rolling our eyes sighing to ourselves, "give me a break!"

True, training, skill, and will can overcome limits of size and strength and age...to a point.  To a very limited point.

As you say, if Jim had shifted her role to accommodate that reality it could have worked better, but he didn't. 

One more point on that, much of the appeal of Murphy over the years was the fact that she was a plain vanilla human.  Extraordinary skills maybe, but still an ordinary vanilla human, so to keep her that way, no power ups.  Fact of life for ALL ordinary vanilla humans, time takes it's toll, ordinary vanilla humans age, we see that on the athletic field all of the time!  No matter how great, how in shape, how trained, how naturally gifted, eventually steps become slower, the punch or hit less hard, the jump not as high, and eyesight not as keen..   So if the timeline is right and at the time of her death, Murphy was in her mid-fifties and with every Super Woman move, some of us rolled our eyes.. 

[LaraBeck]

if the timeline is right and at the time of her death, Murphy was in her mid-fifties

The official timeline puts Harry as being born 26 years before Storm Front (which happens in March, we know his birthday is in October), and Murphy as being born 29 years before Storm Front (we don't know when her birthday is). That makes Murphy around 3 years and maybe a few months older than Harry is.

BG takes place 14 years after Storm Front, so, Karrin was in her early 40s in Battle Ground, she was 43 if she had a birthday before July.

And just for reference: Harry is turning 40 that October after Battle Ground, Thomas and Butters are 45-46, and Michael is somewhere between 57-60.

[Mira]

The official timeline puts Harry as being born 26 years before Storm Front (which happens in March, we know his birthday is in October), and Murphy as being born 29 years before Storm Front (we don't know when her birthday is). That makes Murphy around 3 years and maybe a few months older than Harry is.

BG takes place 14 years after Storm Front, so, Karrin was in her early 40s in Battle Ground, she was 43 if she had a birthday before July.

And just for reference: Harry is turning 40 that October after Battle Ground, Thomas and Butters are 45-46, and Michael is somewhere between 57-60.

Yes, but if the books continue to reflect real time, and Jim is averaging one every three to five years, Harry would be 43 to 45 the next book, still considered quite young by wizard standards, but menopausal 48 year old Murphy is in middle age, and the next one would put her over 50, by the time of the BAT she would have been on Social Security had she lived, while Harry was just reaching his prime.  What makes me sad is how she died, better she had died from her hand to hand with Nic than a bullet through the neck from a panicked cop.

[LaraBeck]

Yes, but if the books continue to reflect real time, and Jim is averaging one every three to five years, Harry would be 43 to 45 the next book, still considered quite young by wizard standards, but menopausal 48 year old Murphy is in middle age, and the next one would put her over 50, by the time of the BAT she would have been on Social Security had she lived, while Harry was just reaching his prime.  What makes me sad is how she died, better she had died from her hand to hand with Nic than a bullet through the neck from a panicked cop.

The books have not been reflecting real time in a while. There's just 5 months between Skin Game and Peace Talks, hours between Peace Talks and Battle Ground. And we already know that the next book will cover the year of his engagement to Lara, which puts the start and finish of it within one year right after Battle Ground. There won't be a leap in years to the next book that would reflect our real time or publication time, nor do we know what Jim will continue to do in that regard in the future, yet.

I'm not arguing over what's prime age or whatever, just pointing out what the facts are regarding the ages of the characters in-universe. Not interested in making assumptions here.

[Dina]

Thank you LaraBeck I came here to say the same. The books timeline is shorter than our current time because they do not reflect our timeline anymore. So Harry and Karrin are (were) still quite young. Nevertheless, a 40+ petite woman will be having a lot of trouble facing younger and bigger threats, even the vanilla ones. I think it was not so bad so far. As Harry mentions once clever vanilla people adapt. They use armors, like Charity. They use kevlar but they can learn to use magic things. But "badly coping" is not enough to keep with the sort of things Harry is facing nowadays. So yes, something had to change.
Mira, I am also sad for Murphy's way of dying. For several reasons, one of them is that she was a cop, she likes cops, she would have hated to be killed by friendly fire of another cop. And for a stupid, nervous one? She would have gone ballistic. Not for herself, but for Rudolph's incompetence.

I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?

[g33k]

Except not: ...

Everything you say about hand-to-hand combat, & size/strength mattering, is absolutely true.

But because this is fantasy, and the "superhuman(ish)" tropes around martial arts do exist in the nerdosphere, Murphy's exploits had a "fits the narrative" gloss.

Note that, in large part, much of the very-real "superiority" of martial arts come from a dedicated and practiced suite of technique/method/theories that are unfamiliar to the opponents (as witness the dominance of BJJ for the first few years after it entered MMA matches).
 

[g33k]

... I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?

My own WAG (that I've posted before) is that Prime!Harry gets abducted by Mirror!Harry during the weddingday prep...  Harry checks his reflection (because showing up rumpled would piss off Lara) and Mirror!Harry pulls him into the mirror.
THE END (of Twelve Months).

And then, when he gets back...
Lara has been stood up by her groom.
And the Winter Knight has disobeyed Mab's direct orders.

and poor Harry thought Ascher/Lasciel was a problem instance of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

No, Harry, but you are about to learn...

[vincentric]

My own WAG (that I've posted before) is that Prime!Harry gets abducted by Mirror!Harry during the weddingday prep...  Harry checks his reflection (because showing up rumpled would piss off Lara) and Mirror!Harry pulls him into the mirror.
THE END (of Twelve Months).

And then, when he gets back...
Lara has been stood up by her groom.
And the Winter Knight has disobeyed Mab's direct orders.

and poor Harry thought Ascher/Lasciel was a problem instance of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

No, Harry, but you are about to learn...

Unless Mirror Harry is also the Winter Knight, Mab will know immediately and so will Molly that he is an imposter. And that means that Lara will be told right away. It would be a bad play for him to even show up in this universe without months of research and prep and he'd have to take Harry from some point that is more isolated and less time sensitive if he's going to jump into his shoes. I guess he could do it with a mind switch like Corpsetaker uses but even that has time issues because that's going to be a real fight.

[LordDresden2]

Everything you say about hand-to-hand combat, & size/strength mattering, is absolutely true.

But because this is fantasy, and the "superhuman(ish)" tropes around martial arts do exist in the nerdosphere, Murphy's exploits had a "fits the narrative" gloss.

But that's just the problem.  One of the reasons the Dresden Files has been so good is precisely that JB hasn't indulged that tendency very far.  Yeah, magic is real and vampires roam...but people who try to ignore practical reality get into trouble fast even so.

One of my favorite bits in the early books is an incident where Harry more or less did the 'tough guy PI' routine with Marcone.  As a side effect, someone was killed.

It wasn't Harry who killed him, but things didn't play out like in the movies, either.

Susan did something stupid...and she paid a very steep price.

In one of the side stories, Billy tries to get 'tough' with Marcone...and ends up with a knife in his side.  As John himself points out, Billy simply can't do the sort of thing Harry can get away with.  He's not powerful enough.

At a couple of points Harry starts to make a movie-hero-ish speech demanding/threatening things with Mab.  All it gets him is agony and an order to shut up.  His opinion doesn't matter to her and he can't do anything about it (at least not yet), so his best option is to shut up.

Etc.

For the most part, JB has deliberately refrained from doing the various tropes of 'narrative gloss of the nerdosphere'.  Karrin's unrealistic abilities at akido were already a partial, limited exception, and it was becoming glaring.  Ignoring the effects of age, or the reality of the growing danger level around Harry, would make it worse.  Do very much of that, and the DV starts to resemble stuff like Harry Potter or the like.

On a related note:

Nevertheless, a 40+ petite woman will be having a lot of trouble facing younger and bigger threats, even the vanilla ones. I think it was not so bad so far. As Harry mentions once clever vanilla people adapt. They use armors, like Charity. They use kevlar but they can learn to use magic things.

But for the most part, Karrin wasn't doing that.  What I mean is that she was not really adapting all that well to her situation post Changes.  She wasn't a cop anymore, but she still had cop instincts, deep down I think she thought of herself as a cop.  But she was, de facto, now part of John's organization, though she was in denial about that.   Butters was actually more self-honest on that point than Karrin was.

Note that Karrin had reverted to some of her attitude from the early books, before the loup garou rampage, angry, touchy, trying desperately to control a situation that was spiraling beyond her control.  When Karrin feels threatened and out of control, she gets mad as a coping mechanism.

But "badly coping" is not enough to keep with the sort of things Harry is facing nowadays. So yes, something had to change.
Mira, I am also sad for Murphy's way of dying. For several reasons, one of them is that she was a cop, she likes cops, she would have hated to be killed by friendly fire of another cop. And for a stupid, nervous one? She would have gone ballistic. Not for herself, but for Rudolph's incompetence.

I don't like how she died...but at the same time, I approve of it.

What do I mean by that?  Above, I was talking about how the DV doesn't run on narrative traditions.  It's grittier than that.  Karrin's death wasn't a traditional protagonist death, but it was a realistic death.  That's precisely the sort of thing that sloppy trigger discipline and recklessness can produce, and we had plenty of precedent for Rudolph's sloppiness and recklessness.

It's precisely that realism that makes the DV, for all the vampires and magic, feel real and impactful and believable.  Karrin deserved better, but...so what?  That's life.

I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?

Define marry.

[Dina]

I agree about how Karin's death was good from a narrative point of view. I just meant that in universe is so sad and she herself would have hated to go that way.

Define marry.

I meant the actual ritual and ceremony. The part of the sex is a secondary mystery but it is also relevant for the first part because we know that traditionally marriages were not valid until they were consummated.

[Mira]

But for the most part, Karrin wasn't doing that.  What I mean is that she was not really adapting all that well to her situation post Changes.  She wasn't a cop anymore, but she still had cop instincts, deep down I think she thought of herself as a cop.  But she was, de facto, now part of John's organization, though she was in denial about that.   Butters was actually more self-honest on that point than Karrin was.

She also became a hypocrite post Changes, mostly manifested by what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't return the custodianship of the Swords back to Harry, claiming she had better judgement where the Swords were concerned, he couldn't be trusted etc.  Then turned around and did everything a Sword custodian shouldn't do, breaking the rules that govern the use of a Holy Sword, and got a Holy Sword broken.  As Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, she appointed herself,custodian, she wasn't appointed.  Though it did turn out well in the end, there was no remorse on her part about being so arrogant that she thought she knew better than God.

But because this is fantasy, and the "superhuman(ish)" tropes around martial arts do exist in the nerdosphere, Murphy's exploits had a "fits the narrative" gloss.

Not really, because supposedly and many people here have argued that the main attraction of Murphy was the fact that she was very vanilla human, a believable character.  That's what she was basically until she got fired from the police force.  She was a martial arts champ, fine with in the limits of what is humanly possible for her size etc., believable.  That's what people loved about her, but as time went on her character became more wonder womanish with supposedly the wisdom of Solomon, there are other characters that fit that role better than she did. 

For the most part, JB has deliberately refrained from doing the various tropes of 'narrative gloss of the nerdosphere'.  Karrin's unrealistic abilities at akido were already a partial, limited exception, and it was becoming glaring.  Ignoring the effects of age, or the reality of the growing danger level around Harry, would make it worse.  Do very much of that, and the DV starts to resemble stuff like Harry Potter or the like.

Exactly

[LordDresden2]

She also became a hypocrite post Changes, mostly manifested by what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't return the custodianship of the Swords back to Harry, claiming she had better judgement where the Swords were concerned, he couldn't be trusted etc.  Then turned around and did everything a Sword custodian shouldn't do, breaking the rules that govern the use of a Holy Sword, and got a Holy Sword broken.  As Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, she appointed herself,custodian, she wasn't appointed. 

To be fair, that was true to her past characterization, though it had been a while since we had seen that side of her personality.  We saw the same character traits come out after she lost her police position that she displayed in Storm Front and Fool Moon.  Granted that was a long time ago, but the same traits are visible.

Karrin has many virtues, but she also has a strong desire for control.  Not to dominate others so much (though that can be a side effect when it goes badly) but rather control over her own situation, over events she's part of.  When focused properly it made her a better cop, when it was focused badly it caused her to display bad judgement.  Her reaction to out of control tends to be anger and an attempt to force control.  She also hates to admit, even (or esp.) to herself, that she's afraid.  It's a linked trait.

When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast.  Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her.  Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear.  She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.

But Karrin was never good at admitting fear to others or herself, and she reacted to that fear by trying to control it, to apply her comfort belief (the law) to it, to treat it like a mundane criminal conspiracy or the like.  This was dangerous self-deception, and it eventually cost Ron Carmichael his life.

The events of Fool Moon sobered Karrin up a lot, and also forcibly humbled her.  After that, she usually recognized that the supernatural was too powerful for her, she simply was not going to have full control.  Occasionally she started to fall into that former pattern, but Harry could usually bring her to her senses by reminding her of the loup garou.  We saw variations on that happen (off the top of my head) in Death Masks, Blood Rites, Proven Guilty, and Small Favor.  In each case she would start to slip back into old habits of thought, and either Harry would remind of the loup garou or some other supernatural event would remind her of the power imbalance, and she would sober up.

But when Harry apparently died and she was no longer a cop and no longer had Harry there, her control issues flared up again and that old anger and arrogance (which is disguised fear) reappeared.

Not really, because supposedly and many people here have argued that the main attraction of Murphy was the fact that she was very vanilla human, a believable character.  That's what she was basically until she got fired from the police force.  She was a martial arts champ, fine with in the limits of what is humanly possible for her size etc., believable.  That's what people loved about her, but as time went on her character became more wonder womanish with supposedly the wisdom of Solomon, there are other characters that fit that role better than she did. 

Exactly

Another issue with bringing Karrin back is the Harry/Karrin romantic/sexual relationship.

Back in the early books, a Harry/Karrin pairing seemed totally natural to me.  I would find myself thinking that she made way more sense for Harry than Susan did.  Their worlds and lives intersected comfortably.  That was also before we knew about Harry's lifespan.

To my mind, though, even by Proven Guilty or White Night, the idea of Harry/Karrin seemed less and less plausible and natural.  Harry's life was changing, it was kind of like they'd missed their 'launch window'.  Also, Karrin's reasons for rejecting a relationship with Harry, way back when, were by no means trivial or bad.  Harry's lifespan makes anything other than a temporary fling with a normal woman a highly doubtful prospect.  Once we knew about his lifespan, suddenly Elaine or Molly both seemed like more natural prospects than Karrin. Elaine and Molly also seemed more 'natural' fits with the world Harry was moving in and the changes he was undergoing.  By the time of Turn Coat, I had started sort of hearing that Taylor Swift song in my head when Molly was with Harry and he would be thinking about Karrin:  You Belong With Me.  When Harry was with Elaine, that too seemed more 'natural' after a while.

If Karrin were to come back as a baseline mortal...all the same relationship issues suddenly reappear, too.  If she comes back as something other than a baseline mortal, one of her main character distinctions has vanished.  I'm not sure this problem has a solution.

[Mira]

To be fair, that was true to her past characterization, though it had been a while since we had seen that side of her personality.  We saw the same character traits come out after she lost her police position that she displayed in Storm Front and Fool Moon.  Granted that was a long time ago, but the same traits are visible.

Agreed, I also think Harry is attracted to that kind of controlling personality because he was an orphan.

When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast.  Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her.  Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear.  She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.

Susan's reaction was weird, on one hand she saw it as career enhancing, but on the other I don't think she actually believed the danger in spite of what she witnessed and experienced.  In the end that's what was her downfall, her refusal to believe Harry when he told her why he wasn't going to Bianca's party.  In some respects not unlike Murphy, but different, a smart woman so confident in her own judgement that she ignored what Harry was trying to tell her. Murphy so confident in her law background thought she was qualified to pass judgement on Nic, when it wasn't her place to judge. 

Another issue with bringing Karrin back is the Harry/Karrin romantic/sexual relationship.

Back in the early books, a Harry/Karrin pairing seemed totally natural to me.  I would find myself thinking that she made way more sense for Harry than Susan did.  Their worlds and lives intersected comfortably.  That was also before we knew about Harry's lifespan.

I never was a fan of a Harry/Karrin romantic relationship simply because I preferred it when they had a professional relationship.  Friendship was fine, but romance mucked it up in my opinion.  I didn't care for his relationship with Susan either because though I won't say that she didn't love him, her ambition complicated their relationship. 

To my mind, though, even by Proven Guilty or White Night, the idea of Harry/Karrin seemed less and less plausible and natural.  Harry's life was changing, it was kind of like they'd missed their 'launch window'.  Also, Karrin's reasons for rejecting a relationship with Harry, way back when, were by no means trivial or bad]

Yes, and those reasons didn't go away with time, they were just as valid in Peace Talks as they were back in Proven Guilty.  Actually I lost a lot of respect for the character when the romance took over.  Why? Because it was refreshing for a man and a woman to have a normal professional/friendship working relationship, I never saw any real sexual tension between them. 

If Karrin were to come back as a baseline mortal...all the same relationship issues suddenly reappear, too.  If she comes back as something other than a baseline mortal, one of her main character distinctions has vanished.  I'm not sure this problem has a solution.

In short, it doesn't!  Murphy was a vanilla mortal, as such, when she was murdered, she should stay D-E-A-D..  That sounds blunt, but in my opinion the rest of the series is going to be complicated enough without the distraction of a returning Murphy from Valhalla.. To quote Gard, they don't return until living memory of them is gone, and there is a reason for that. Murphy died, we can mourn her, but the series needs to move on.

[LordDresden2]

When she first met Harry, and realized the reality of the supernatural, her reaction was different from Susan's, which was an interesting contrast.  Susan was fascinated, it was a vast fascinating puzzle, an enigma for her reporter's instincts, and (on a deep level) a big game to her.  Karrin is smarter (in a practical, street-smart way, I have no idea about their respective IQ test results) than Susan, though, and her first visceral reaction to the discovery of the reality of the supernatural world was fear.  She was smart enough, she perceived it clearly enough, to be afraid of it.

Susan's reaction was weird, on one hand she saw it as career enhancing, but on the other I don't think she actually believed the danger in spite of what she witnessed and experienced. 

I agree with that 100%.  She believed with the intellectual part of her mind, but the gut-level fear that would be a natural reaction was absent.  On some deep level she wasn't taking it seriously.  She was entranced by the vision of writing the Story, and even when Harry pointed out that she would never be permitted to publish it anyway, I don't think she really heard him.

Years ago, I made a comparison with Susan and her reactions:  imagine if, instead of an invite to the Vampire Ball, Susan had been given an opportunity of a lifetime for a reporter.  Imagine she had a chance to interview President Bush and Osama  bin Laden at the same time, any questions allowed and answered.  The sort of thing a reporter can only fantasize about.

But there's a condition:  to get to the interview she has to swim naked through a tank of chummed reef sharks.  Would she accept?  Of course not, it would be obvious suicide.  She would recognize the sharks as a lethal threat.  But she didn't, deep down, think of the vampires that way, because 'there's no such thing as vampires'.  They weren't real to her.

The monsters were quite real for Karrin from the beginning, as is shown by her natural, healthy reaction:  fear.  Karrin was visibly terrified of the supernatural, but had trouble admitting it to herself.

I never was a fan of a Harry/Karrin romantic relationship simply because I preferred it when they had a professional relationship.  Friendship was fine, but romance mucked it up in my opinion.  I didn't care for his relationship with Susan either because though I won't say that she didn't love him, her ambition complicated their relationship. 

Yes, and those reasons didn't go away with time, they were just as valid in Peace Talks as they were back in Proven Guilty.  Actually I lost a lot of respect for the character when the romance took over.  Why? Because it was refreshing for a man and a woman to have a normal professional/friendship working relationship, I never saw any real sexual tension between them. 

Oh, I did.  There was definitely sexual and romantic tension.  It's just that it didn't necessarily make sense for them to act on it.

[LordDresden2]

I am beginning to get intrigued by how many options there are for Mirror/Mirror. But first, we need to see what happens in 12 months, especially the main question, will they actually marry?

Define marry.

 I meant the actual ritual and ceremony. The part of the sex is a secondary mystery but it is also relevant for the first part because we know that traditionally marriages were not valid until they were consummated.

The reason I asked is that 'marriage' can have specialized meanings in the sort of Old World political alliance scenarios such as Mab is invoking.  Will Harry marry Lara?  Maybe, but I don't know that it'll end up being what we usually think of as marriage.

There are obvious issues.  For ex, realistically, Lara can't be faithful.  She has to feed, at least occasionally.  Harry would not be wise to indulge in much marital sex with Lara, for the same reason he would not be wise to relax with a hit of heroin.  But I envision 'political' arrangements that might be called a marriage, too.

(Also, I'm pretty sure Harry would be very reluctant to have kids with Lara!  And if they did, making sure those kids escaped the White Court status would be a maximum priority for Harry.  Which doesn't mean JB might not do it, of course.)