We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay

[g33k]

I believe JB has said that Thomas is Harry's only siblings, though I can't recall exactly where.

You are correct:

Q: Do Harry and Thomas have any other siblings out there?
A: NO

^{-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-family/
 (quoted from "Some 2008 booksigning pulled off of youtube" (but the link is dead))}

Nicodemus' words to Harry back in the day hinted that there might be others, he referred to Harry as Margaret's 'youngest' rather than 'younger', but that's hardly proof of anything.  Of course it's possibly in theory that Margaret could have had kids when she was much younger, who never studied magic and died of old age before Harry and Thomas were born.  But I don't consider that at all probable

Agreed; technically possible, but improbable; and even if true virtually-certain to not be relevant (as such, Jim could well retcon it to be "true" just so some badguy could toss it under Harry's nose as a red herring)

[Mira]

The date(s) may be off a bit; but the fact that (as per the OP's query) Maggie Sr's mother is firmly fixed as a mortal woman.

AFAIK Eb's parents (and all the rest of the Senior Council) are entirely un-addressed in either canonical stories or WoJ's.  Jim may -- or may not -- have some "Meaningful Revelations" for us, there... 

I didn't say Margaret's mother wasn't a mortal, just that the date of Margaret's birth from the other information we have seems way off.  Unless her spending decades in the Nevernever kept her younger than she actually was.

[Lord Kinbote]

Maybe someone has already wrote this in this thread - or cited canon that disproves it - but I believe a "mantle" to refer to a role/level of power/set of abilities that MUST transfer when the entity (vessel) that currently contains that mantle dies. 

Winter/Summer Lady dies, when the W/S Knight dies, the mantle MUST go immediately to another.  Presumably same applies to Mother W/S, Mab, and Titania, except that those mantles automatically pass to the next in the hierarchical line based on Battle Ground (Mab - 'kill Molly if I die; she's not ready for the Mab mantle').

But the transfers at the bottom of the Mother/Queen/Lady hierarchy isn't controlled by the dying entity or even apparently the Fae hierarchy, who seem only able to position a possible vessel for the bottom tier mantle to take but the mantle goes the the closest, "best" vessel (whatever "best" means and is determined). 

Whether that causes an automatic cascading effect (e.g., Mab's mantle automatically to Molly, then the WL mantle automatically exits to head to another vessel) or whether a vessel simultaneously can take the "seeking" mantle and keep the mantle already contained isn't revealed by canon.  But maybe Mab's 'kill Molly' hints that Molly would have had both the Mab mantle and the WL mantle, and that's what she couldn't handle.

The Winter/Summer Knight mantle may be different, though, and seem controllable by the W/S Queen.  Insofar as we know or has been hinted, the W/S Knight mantle is an appointed position, not part of a hierarchy, and the selection of the vessel is controlled by the W/S Queen to at least some degree.

Maybe the Leanansidhe mantle - if it is one - is similarly controlled by Mab.

[SerScot]

First time poster here, so I have some catching up to do in the fan speculation stuff here. Harry's mom is composed of about 90% hearsay and rumors. Let's add some more by speculating wildly here.

Who is LeFay's mom? I'd be disappointed if it was some yet unnamed vanilla human. My money is on the Leanansidhe. Who can we add to the suspect list?

LeFay was also about a century old before she died. Do Harry and Thomas have any older siblings?

Now a hypothesis: LeFay met Malcolm after hiring him for Thomas's birthday on Valentines day. Nine months later, Harry was born on Halloween. Plausible?

What other head cannon have you been filling Margaret Gwendolyn McCoy LeFay's backstory with?

I hope Maggie Sr. mom was mortal.  I’m tired of every character in the DF having to have some supernatural connection.  I loved Murphy in part because she was a competent vanilla mortal. 

I hope Harry’s grandmother was a woman Eb fell deeply in love with who had his daughter and we discover later… exactly why Eb has such a deep seated hatred of vampires.

[g33k]

...
I hope Harry’s grandmother was a woman Eb fell deeply in love with who had his daughter and we discover later… exactly why Eb has such a deep seated hatred of vampires.

I've long suspected that Eb is particularly anti-whampire because they cost him his wife (Maggie-Sr's mother).

[g33k]

Maybe someone has already wrote this in this thread - or cited canon that disproves it - but I believe a "mantle" to refer to a role/level of power/set of abilities that MUST transfer when the entity (vessel) that currently contains that mantle dies. 

Winter/Summer Lady dies, when the W/S Knight dies, the mantle MUST go immediately to another.  Presumably same applies to Mother W/S, Mab, and Titania, except that those mantles automatically pass to the next in the hierarchical line based on Battle Ground (Mab - 'kill Molly if I die; she's not ready for the Mab mantle').

But the transfers at the bottom of the Mother/Queen/Lady hierarchy isn't controlled by the dying entity or even apparently the Fae hierarchy, who seem only able to position a possible vessel for the bottom tier mantle to take but the mantle goes the the closest, "best" vessel (whatever "best" means and is determined). 

Whether that causes an automatic cascading effect (e.g., Mab's mantle automatically to Molly, then the WL mantle automatically exits to head to another vessel) or whether a vessel simultaneously can take the "seeking" mantle and keep the mantle already contained isn't revealed by canon.  But maybe Mab's 'kill Molly' hints that Molly would have had both the Mab mantle and the WL mantle, and that's what she couldn't handle.

The Winter/Summer Knight mantle may be different, though, and seem controllable by the W/S Queen.  Insofar as we know or has been hinted, the W/S Knight mantle is an appointed position, not part of a hierarchy, and the selection of the vessel is controlled by the W/S Queen to at least some degree.

Maybe the Leanansidhe mantle - if it is one - is similarly controlled by Mab.

I'm pretty sure that there are at least hints, and maybe overt statements, that the Queens and the Mothers can override the auto-succession and hold onto a lesser mantle.  But they almost never do so:  it's really bad for the respective Court, and/or for Reality itself, to have those roles "empty."

Cannot cite sources at the moment, sorry.

[Mira]

I'm pretty sure that there are at least hints, and maybe overt statements, that the Queens and the Mothers can override the auto-succession and hold onto a lesser mantle.  But they almost never do so:  it's really bad for the respective Court, and/or for Reality itself, to have those roles "empty."

Cannot cite sources at the moment, sorry.

If the Queens can override automatic succession, why did Mab want Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her?  Couldn't she just have put an override on it so the succession wouldn't have happened?  Also another little problem doesn't she have to  be dead before the mantel can jump in the first place?  And if she were dead, how could Mab override the succession?

[g33k]

If the Queens can override automatic succession, why did Mab want Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her?  Couldn't she just have put an override on it so the succession wouldn't have happened?  Also another little problem doesn't she have to  be dead before the mantel can jump in the first place?  And if she were dead, how could Mab override the succession?

Context, Mira.
I was replying to -- quoting -- the specific context of Kinbote saying that the succession is always automatic, and cannot be stopped.  I think -- if they really need to -- that the Mothers can each hold on to any of their lesser mantles, while they move their pawns into the right configurations.  And the Queens, I think, can do the same with the mantles of their Ladies and their Knights.  But the Queens & Mothers almost never see the need to do so.

You're correct (I think, we have no canon here) that a dead Mab couldn't interfere with Molly ascending to the Queenmantle, and I wasn't trying to suggest that.

[Mira]

the specific context of Kinbote saying that the succession is always automatic, and cannot be stopped

I think that was pretty well established in Summer Knight, that the mantel will always flow to the nearest vessel that can receive it.  The Mothers confirmed that when Harry visited them. Also confirming that was what happened in Cold Days, if Mab had her preferences Sarissa would have gotten the Winter Lady's mantel and Molly the Summer Lady's mantel, but it was out of her hands once the mantels began to migrate.

[g33k]

I think that was pretty well established in Summer Knight, that the mantel will always flow to the nearest vessel that can receive it.  The Mothers confirmed that when Harry visited them. 

I think in Summer Knight it was a special case:  an unexpected murder, done by surprise.  I don't think Titania had the chance to intervene.
I'll have to re-read the scene with the mothers, though.

Also confirming that was what happened in Cold Days, if Mab had her preferences Sarissa would have gotten the Winter Lady's mantel and Molly the Summer Lady's mantel, but it was out of her hands once the mantels began to migrate.

Sarissa got the Summer mantle 1st.  That one is outside Mab's control -- she couldn't hold it.

So that one was a done deal... then the Winter mantle also had to move (and Sarissa was already taken).
(eta:  I have long wondered, though -- why not move to one of the Winterfae that Maeve had brought there...?  Does the Ladymantle *want* a mortal host??!?)

[LordDresden2]

I've long suspected that Eb is particularly anti-whampire because they cost him his wife (Maggie-Sr's mother).

That seems likely, though it could be someone else.

Also...when he was warning Harry about the danger of WV 'friendships' in Turn Coat, he did say that the WVs are so good at lying that maybe they sometimes even believe it themselves (that they are friends with a mortal).  Considering how much he hates them, that's an odd thing for him to allow. 

This theory doesn't have much hard basis, it's just a WAG on my part, but it might explain Eb's comments to Harry in TC:  I just wonder if Eb's wife and/or Margaret's mother (they could still theoretically be different women) died because Eb, or she, or both were 'friends' with a WV who lost control of his/her demon at some point, and killed her.

Because that can happen.  We've already seen, in Turn Coat for ex, that even Thomas, who desperately wants to not be evil, is still an unexploded bomb around mortals, potentially.  As Eb said, if Thomas gets Hungry enough, the demon takes over and nobody is safe until it feeds.  Eb wasn't wrong about that. Thomas would have killed Molly if she hadn't had that force-field defense.

Harry received more or less the same warning about the danger of White Vampires from Bob, all the way back in book five or so. 

 

[g33k]

... 
Because that can happen.  We've already seen, in Turn Coat for ex, that even Thomas, who desperately wants to not be evil, is still an unexploded bomb around mortals, potentially.  As Eb said, if Thomas gets Hungry enough, the demon takes over and nobody is safe until it feeds.  Eb wasn't wrong about that. Thomas would have killed Molly if she hadn't had that force-field defense ...

I mean... something similar is true for anyone strong or well-trained.

I'm no John Wick, but if I seriously snapped, facing someone untrained, I could kill them in just a few seconds.  Anyone with a gun & a lost temper can do it even faster.  Murphy talks about it with Harry, once or twice, likening her training as aikidoka to Harry's as a wizard; the danger that they both are, the training and discipline they both need.

In PT, Eb would have killed Harry, if Harry hadn't been piloting a Faerie Exosuit.

[Mira]

I mean... something similar is true for anyone strong or well-trained.

I'm no John Wick, but if I seriously snapped, facing someone untrained, I could kill them in just a few seconds.  Anyone with a gun & a lost temper can do it even faster.  Murphy talks about it with Harry, once or twice, likening her training as aikidoka to Harry's as a wizard; the danger that they both are, the training and discipline they both need.

In PT, Eb would have killed Harry, if Harry hadn't been piloting a Faerie Exosuit.

Slight correction, Eb did kill Harry, but it was his doppelganger and not him, thanks to his foresight and the ring that Molly made for him..

[LordDresden2]

...
Because that can happen.  We've already seen, in Turn Coat for ex, that even Thomas, who desperately wants to not be evil, is still an unexploded bomb around mortals, potentially.  As Eb said, if Thomas gets Hungry enough, the demon takes over and nobody is safe until it feeds.  Eb wasn't wrong about that. Thomas would have killed Molly if she hadn't had that force-field defense ...

I mean... something similar is true for anyone strong or well-trained.

I'm no John Wick, but if I seriously snapped, facing someone untrained, I could kill them in just a few seconds.  Anyone with a gun & a lost temper can do it even faster.  Murphy talks about it with Harry, once or twice, likening her training as aikidoka to Harry's as a wizard; the danger that they both are, the training and discipline they both need.

It's not the same thing.

Yes, anyone can snap and kill someone else.  I could go nuts while driving down the road and deliberately drive into a crowd and run down some people, etc.

But in each case those are all 'ifs'.  Any given person might snap and do something lethal, but in most people it's very improbable.  There's no specific condition where it's essentially 100% certain to happen.  Even a person who is dying of starvation, and whose only possible source of food is to kill and eat a friend or relative or whatever, is not certain to murder to live.  People can and have died rather than violate their morals or their loyalties.  Not everyone will do so, but it's always a possibility, and the flip side is that it's never certain that a given person will go bad.

But any WV is a different story.  If he or she gets Hungry enough, the demon shuts down the human personality and takes over, and that WV turns into nothing more than a very, very dangerous predator optimized to feed on humans.  He or she will remain in that state until the demon feeds, or the WV is destroyed.

Not might.  Not could.  It will happen, if the demon gets sufficiently Hungry.  And that's true of every WV, including Thomas.

It's the full 'silver eyes' state, and in that state, the WV doesn't care if he or she eats an enemy, a friend, a lover, whoever.  Any human within strike range is potential food for the demon.

Thomas managed, one time, to break off feeding on Justine just before she was dead.  But it was apparently a close-run thing even there, and it happened only after the demon had fed on her to the point of near-death (assuming that whole incident wasn't somehow a Nemesis deception).

A WV that kills in that state might regret it afterward.  I'm sure Thomas would have been wracked with horror and guilt if he had eaten Molly.  But though he might weep over her grave (assuming someone didn't immediately kill him for it), Molly would be no less dead.

The thing is that that demon is always there, always waiting, always ready to go on a feeding spree if it gets Hungry enough.  One could even argue, mathematically, that it's certain that any WV that lives long enough will, sooner or later, fall into a situation where he or she loses control of their demon.  It's kind of like an asteroid impact, improbable today or tomorrow or any other given day, but nearly certain over unlimited time.

WV are dangerous.

 

[Mira]

A WV that kills in that state might regret it afterward.  I'm sure Thomas would have been wracked with horror and guilt if he had eaten Molly.  But though he might weep over her grave (assuming someone didn't immediately kill him for it), Molly would be no less dead.

Would he have?  I'm not so sure, at the end of Turn Coat, Thomas fully admits in so many words after the Hunger Demon took over he enjoyed feeding on and killing those girls.  Just a personal opinion, but I wish Jim had developed this Thomas more for Harry to deal with, I think Jim dropped the ball there.

page 413 Turn Coat;

"Then talk to me," I said, urgently.  "Thomas, Jesus Christ.  This is not you."
"Yes, it is," he spat, the words a blended hiss.  "That's what it taught me, Harry.  At the end of the day, I'm just an empty place that needs to be filled."  He shook his head.  "I didn't want to kill those girls.  But I did it.  I killed them, over and over, and I loved how it felt.  When I think back on the memory of it, it doesn't make me horrified."  He sneered. "It just makes me hard."

 I was really disappointed, because that could have set up some really interesting conflict, and nothing, if anything was done with this.  In Changes, Thomas was pretty back to who he was before the Skinwalker got a hold of him, and so was his relationship with Harry.   Possible we might see it yet, now that Thomas is on the island reliving his crimes.  I hope so.