Author Topic: Never build a gun that can be pointed at you  (Read 1624 times)

Offline prince lotore

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Never build a gun that can be pointed at you
« on: May 24, 2024, 04:50:43 PM »
For context of where I'm coming from with the title, I'm almost 50 and when I was a kid there was a political theory/common sense that if you create a policy to go after your enemies eventually no matter how well you think you crafted to prevent it being used against you eventually  it will be used against you so be careful with the "monster" that you make because it most likely will be your problem in the future.

Mab is building a “nuclear” option in Harry, but she is aware that she can't completely control him, and she also knows that he can take her out if he chooses to (with the bodies of two Ladies to prove it). Now her dilemma is that she sees (probably with Uriel’s help) something much worse than she can handle by herself coming and sees Harry (in much the same way Obi-Wan and Yoda spent 20 years building Luke into a weapon to use on Vader) as something she can mold into whatever she needs to get through it. But she doesn't just upgrade him i.e. have Lea or Vadderung teach him better magic or give him upgraded gear like Molly did.  And I don't buy or at least not completely buy the “she helps those who help themselves idea”. Why not just show him the big picture. If something is coming to destroy the whole world Harry would do anything he could to prevent that. Its where he keeps all his stuff and his daughter.

          Now as a father I understand the concept of introducing something to your kid too early for them to understand can lead to them using whatever it is poorly or even harm them (well by the third one at least).  But Harry has seen the outer gates he understands what is trying to get in and how bad it would be if that happened.  If Mab says to Harry, you are aware of my relationship with the watchman and you have seen the outer gates.  You have seen the imbalanced influence and power given to groups like Nicodemus and the Denarians.  Is it hard for you to see who the true adversary is and that this isn’t hyperbole when I say an apocalypse is coming.  Noth in that would be false and Harry would do a lot of things that he wouldn’t normally do.  But she doesn’t do that.  She gives him hints of the big picture and he is a better magic user and better fighter, but she knocks him down as often as she builds him up and more importantly, she sidelines/ distracts him as often as possible. Getting stuck on the island for a yr. and now getting married to Laura.

My question is, what is Mab doing that is so bad that Harry even knowing what is at stake that if he found out he would still put her down.  What if Mab knew that she was going to survive the battle in Chicago and she told Harry to kill Molly not to prevent what she would become with Mab’s power but to make Harry believe removing Mab dooms the world not because it would screw up the plans to save it because her replacement would make it worse.

          What if this is a phantom menace. Not from Mab but from Uriel.

As I have read and reread the series over the years the theme or meta narrative of the collapse or corruption of institutions that aren’t supposed to be able change because it is woven into who they are at the core of their being.  To paraphrase Lea shame is when you aren’t doing what you are supposed to do.  The fey, the archive, the white council and countless others all dealing with the same problem of corruption from within and abroad and their enemies united in their plan to destroy them.  Angels have fallen before, and they have taken others with them.  What if the craftiest spook angel who moves in the shadows has been playing the long con for the majority of existence. Who would suspect that the Morning Star and the Watchman have been in it together the whole time. Mab would, but how do you gather allies and weapons for a fight like that without tipping your hand.

  Because if there is one being in all of creation that could get Harry to whack Mab no matter how bad the fall out would be is Uriel. So, she teaches Harry the lessons he needs to learn the most (at least from her point of view (did you get the Obi-Wan call back)).  To think for himself and work no pun intended miracles with no gear or allies. This way he gets prepped for what is coming, and Mab minimizes the countless strings that Uriel can pull to use the weapon she built against her.  The line about Molly might not stop Harry but it might make him hesitate.  It would explain why when everyone, Harry included, says his allies is his greatest strength Mab wants him isolated.  We all assume that it’s so Mab can change him but what if because all the good guys are working for the bad guy.  It’s also one of the few scenarios that I can think of that is so much worse than what Harry knows is coming but telling him about it will almost guarantee him not being where he needs to be at the right time.  Because if Uriel could just pull the trigger so to speak himself, he would have.  I feel like this will be like the other wizard named Harry only someone who wants it for someone else and not themselves can touch it.  Everyone thinks that they can manipulate Harry to get it for them, but Uriel has been using them all.

Except for Mab savior of the universe.  Sorry for making you read the rambling thoughts that swirl in my head when I walk my dog (ironically named Maeve but not for anything that has to do with Dresden)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2024, 04:53:00 PM by prince lotore »
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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Never build a gun that can be pointed at you
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2024, 01:56:18 AM »
I think one reason why Mab might not want Harry to know the full picture could be the same reason why Nicodemus; though he hinted he knew about Nemesis in Small Favor, didn’t fully clue Harry in either.  If Nicodemus had done that, given Harry a fuller picture of what was happening, that would have led Harry to wonder what Nic planned to do about it.

We don’t know what Nicodemus’ idea of a solution is, but we have good reason to think it’s a scorched earth policy or maybe scorched universe policy.  Something that defeats Nemesis and all of its Outsider buddies but does so in a way that creates a maximum of chaos and despair for the next millennium afterwards isn’t something Harry would be on board with.

Mab isn’t Nicodemus, but she’s is what she is, a force of nature.  Mab’s preferred solution might seem; if not equally harsh as Nic’s plan, still unpalatable, to Harry.

So Mab prefers to keep Harry in the dark, to lessen the chance he can come up with a workable alternative solution.  Also, to lessen the opportunity for Harry to free himself from Winter and perhaps free Molly as well. 

Mab appears to have a plan for Harry that involves him becoming an immortal.  That sounds cool; on the surface, but I can’t see Harry ever wanting to fully discard his humanity.  Harry has limits; lines he does not want to cross, but by keeping Harry in the dark Mab may have calculated this will make it easier for her to manipulate Harry into crossing some of those lines.  At least the ones she cares about.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 07:15:18 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Con

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Re: Never build a gun that can be pointed at you
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2024, 02:05:26 AM »
I was with you up until Uriel being Chancellor Palpatine and the big bad. That frustrates me. I agree with you on policy being used against and any weapons you create can be pointed against you. I thin Mab actually enjoys that. She's like Thanos who first time he met Gamora gave her a knife that could pierce him otherwise she wouldn't be a worthy tool for him to wield. Creating a student protege that can defeat and surpusses you is I imagine part of the joy of being a mentor fomr Socrates Plato and Aristotle to master swordsmen to flying aces inw orld war 2 to sensai's to parent you want the one your teaching to someday surpass and be able to defeat you. The Greek Gods defeated the Titans and Zeus was prophesied to be defeated bya son of his some day. It's a common theme in fiction and myth. Maybe not reality and I hope not with Maggie and Molly. But certainly with Anakin and Obi Wan even though Anakin failed in that regard and many others.

I think Uriel was transubstantiated into Malcolm and Uriel is Harry's father or Father I think that'd be cool I'm not sure it's the actual case. It's a fun theory.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Never build a gun that can be pointed at you
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2024, 04:30:07 PM »


I think Uriel was transubstantiated into Malcolm and Uriel is Harry's father or Father I think that'd be cool I'm not sure it's the actual case. It's a fun theory.

I certainly hope not.

I don't know why this desire (for Malcolm to be supernatural) comes up over and over, because it completely undercuts the thing that makes Malcolm a cool character in the backstory in the first place.

Harry has Maggie Sr. for that.  Malcolm is cool and fun precisely because he isn't supernatural, he's just a superbly decent and good man, a loving father, the good influence that turned Maggie Sr. to a better path, the influence on Harry that all the Machiavellian supernaturals have failed to overcome.

Malcolm had Harry for six years.  Since then, Justin, Ebenezar, the Merlin, Mab, the Mothers, Bianca, Mavra, Lara, Nicodemus, the Council in general, Nemesis, Lea, Lasciel, Cowl, and others have all, in their own ways and for their own reasons (a few good, more selfish, still more evil) have tried to overcome Malcolm's influence over Harry, to undo the work Malcolm did in six years...and they all failed.

That is Malcolm's specialness.

Offline Mira

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Re: Never build a gun that can be pointed at you
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2024, 04:44:40 PM »
I certainly hope not.

I don't know why this desire (for Malcolm to be supernatural) comes up over and over, because it completely undercuts the thing that makes Malcolm a cool character in the backstory in the first place.

Harry has Maggie Sr. for that.  Malcolm is cool and fun precisely because he isn't supernatural, he's just a superbly decent and good man, a loving father, the good influence that turned Maggie Sr. to a better path, the influence on Harry that all the Machiavellian supernaturals have failed to overcome.

Malcolm had Harry for six years.  Since then, Justin, Ebenezar, the Merlin, Mab, the Mothers, Bianca, Mavra, Lara, Nicodemus, the Council in general, Nemesis, Lea, Lasciel, Cowl, and others have all, in their own ways and for their own reasons (a few good, more selfish, still more evil) have tried to overcome Malcolm's influence over Harry, to undo the work Malcolm did in six years...and they all failed.

That is Malcolm's specialness.

I totally agree, what makes Malcolm special and why when she fell in love with him in the first place, was his goodness, the quality of his heart.  The very human factor that balances out the supernatural intangibles that make up a star born.  Another theme that constantly comes up when Harry is described along with his will, is his heart.  Harry has been repeatedly told that he inherited his father's good heart, or nature.  This is vital if there is to be hope for the world, it isn't enough to just defeat the Outsiders if a Drakul or Listen step up to take their place.