Pyrofuego

[Yuillegan]

So, according to a reddit comment I found, Jim has apparently said that Harry's Pyrofuego spell in Grave Peril, the spell that ignites the canopy of the roof above him and creates tendrils of nearly-living fire that grab and burn vampires, the spell that stopped his heart and nearly killed him - that spell, is apparently not a death curse, but actually something that will be revealed at the end of the Dresden Files (not the BAT).

I had never considered it before, but that spell is unlike any spell Harry or any other wizard has cast. Similar to Fiendfyre in Harry Potter (or whatever that spell Grindelwald uses in the Crimes of Grindelwald movie), it creates physics defying fire. Fire that can "grab" a being, and annihilate them. Harry, to my knowledge, has never made fire that hot or fire that did more than physics allowed it to (let's leave any Soulfire or Hellfire out for now).

So what do we think happened?

My personal view is that it Harry was tapping into his Starborn power, perhaps his "Destroyer" nature that has been hinted at several times. I have often wondered if Harry's Destroyer nature is similar to Foo Dogs in that he is a focal point of chaos that changes the course of the universe around him in unpredictable and destructive ways. Similar to how Mouse can affect the probability of things to be good and wholesome and work out, and how Ash (My Shadow) can do the opposite.

But now I wonder if some of it is more direct? Just how Harry burned a non-physical being like He Who Walks Behind at a Gas station. Yes, fire is destructive even without magic to magical beings. But we also know that Outsiders are nearly impossible to affect, magically or otherwise. But Starborn have a special power that actually allows them to hurt the being on the other end of the Outsider, the thing that is reaching into the universe through it's avatars e.g. the Cornerhounds are simply the "fingers" of a being reaching into the Dresden universe. It can't manifest fully, so it creates avatars in order to interact with the universe. Normally, this is excellent protection against beings of that universe because the being outside the universe is insulated from any real pain or damage. But Starborn have the ability to actually reach through that connection between the avatar and the original being, and actually cause them real pain and damage. Perhaps even kill them.

So, does anyone have a link to Jim saying that Harry's spell is more than it seems? And what do we think about it?

[g33k]

So, according to a reddit comment I found, Jim has apparently said ...

Did this redditor cite their source, or provide an exact quote?
Because you can make any claim you want online...

Jim says that in Twelve Months, we will learn that Harry's starborn powers tap into a deep-Nevernever realm called Equestria, and he will summon a steed named Tirek Rainbow Lord to ride into battle, who will trounce Mab's unicorn.

Prove me wrong!
 

[Mira]

Did this redditor cite his source, or provide an exact quote?
Because you can make any claim you want online...

Jim says that in Twelve Months, we will learn that Harry's starborn powers tap into a deep-Nevernever realm called Equestria, and he will summon a steed named Tirek Rainbow Lord to ride into battle, who will trounce Mab's unicorn.

Prove me wrong!
 

Cool....   I hope it is a tall horse, with Harry's long legs we don't want to see his heels dragging on the ground!

[kel0700]

Jim said it during an interview. It's on YouTube the youtuber is Jr Carrel, the video is called Exclusive interview with Jim butcher: unveiling the magic behind the dresden files. It's at the 1:22:34 mark

[g33k]

Jim said it during an interview. It's on YouTube the youtuber is Jr Carrel, the video is called Exclusive interview with Jim butcher: unveiling the magic behind the dresden files. It's at the 1:22:34 mark

Thank you!

[Yuillegan]

Jim said it during an interview. It's on YouTube the youtuber is Jr Carrel, the video is called Exclusive interview with Jim butcher: unveiling the magic behind the dresden files. It's at the 1:22:34 mark

Thank you! I figured someone on here would have kept a weather eye out!

Did this redditor cite their source, or provide an exact quote?
Because you can make any claim you want online...

Jim says that in Twelve Months, we will learn that Harry's starborn powers tap into a deep-Nevernever realm called Equestria, and he will summon a steed named Tirek Rainbow Lord to ride into battle, who will trounce Mab's unicorn.

Prove me wrong!
 

Cheeky G33k! Although I would point out the onus of proof is on the claimant 

Cool....   I hope it is a tall horse, with Harry's long legs we don't want to see his heels dragging on the ground!

Knowing his luck (and Jim's humour) Harry would be stuck on a shetland pony.


So all, what do we think about this new information? Thoughts? Theories?

[The_Sibelis]

I always figured it had to do with alignment actually... not necessarily DnD style but that's a good marker because it involves multiple concepts.
Harry's Magical alignment varies throughout his career changing as he does in his style of usage. What I mean is, say SF he clearly gets a lightning motif, changing more fiery by GP,(let's see...) he gets more force magic in after the flamethrower, he'll fire from lasciel, ice from WK mantle, ect.
One caveat of magic(which just now I'm seeing a huge.. flaw? In harry being winter knight) is you are what you do and the more you do it the more it defines you.
Harry's motif in GP was fire, more so BECAUSE of the scene and it's related emotional response I think
Pyro fuego pyro. Can be translated with his intentions to do more. Say, HOT PASSION FIRE.(where were his other usages of it? We're they always a charged situation?)
He more or less, charged his magic with, himself, his soulfire. Uriel said he made him more of what he already was. I supposite, wizards can always use soulfire, the throwing of themselves into their spell completely.. but either by design or by concealment they weren't aware or couldn't break of that energy piecemeal, to access it is to throw the whole bottle..(which yes, I think does imply death curse wizards burn themselves into it)
An what Harry did might have been different because of his intentions, he didn't try to throw a death curse, he didn't intend to die an maybe, because he wasn't acting on instincts of destruction, it was in fact an example of the fabled opposite of a death curse, one born with intentions to create..
That he created destructive fire, is exactly why he was so torn by it. He had total control of it, it didn't burn him. The only other case we've seen of this is Justin

(click to show/hide)

insert of theory Justin is the original unchanged timeline Harry..

which seemed to imply it was a matter more of control and belief(the two going hand in hand). The hardest part seemingly believing the disconnect from reality that is fire burns you.
Makes me wonder about 1 if NN domains can be so foreign because the owners idea of reality matches, al la Mab.
And 2 if Harry's immunity there isn't indicative of his position as a purifier(the nice way bad people say we're gonna destroy you lol), an agent of change and chaos.
Divergent thought...

(click to show/hide)

🤔 If nic knows what's coming setting himself up, walking specific path, might be intentionally making him the shadow cast by Harry's light.

As far as the starborn aspect? Can't protect from yourself.. which is telling to me. He's a child of the stars and he specifically can effect outsiders because of this. The NN physically goes around the planet to about the moon per woj,  so where are the stars? And what does being born to them have to do with outsiders?  Is it the stars that we need look at, or the spaces between them..

[g33k]

Thank you! I figured someone on here would have kept a weather eye out!

<sigh>
The Paranet... isn't what it used to be.     Time was -- years ago -- that passionate volunteers were writing transcripts of the audio, whenever Jim would do interviews and Q&A sessions.

Activity has dropped way off; I was very pleased (but rather surprised) to get the answer above so readily!

I'd love to figure out how to get things picking up again.  The series is still popular, I know!  So I'm  kinda puzzled... could it actually be that @iago's DFRPG was the tail wagging the entire Paranet dog?  And when EH abandoned the main DF rulebooks for the simplified DFA volume, the fanbase shrank too??!?

Where is the largest amount of insightful DF inquiry/speculation/WAG/etc these days... reddit?  And is <wherever that is> also filled with low-effort memery, naive & ignorant questions, and other chaff to be winnowed-through?

Cheeky G33k! Although I would point out the onus of proof is on the claimant 

Indeed the onus is!  I was pointing that out, myself:  without a cite (now provided... TYVM @kel0700!) the OP claim was every bit as unproven as my own claim  (I... uh... I'll have to go looking for the cite proving that claim!    )

Knowing his luck (and Jim's humour) Harry would be stuck on a shetland pony. 

At that point, he might as well ride Mouse...

So all, what do we think about this new information? Thoughts? Theories?

I think we don't have enough info, as yet.
Did that spell tap into Harry's "Starborn" powers?
Is a "Destroyer" just a "Sith" Starborn, fallen to the Dark Side... with this spell a more-sith-y sort of Starborn magic?

Honestly, I'm inclined to think not:  I think being Starborn is an Outsider-specific thing (and possibly a general ability to (eventually) overcome any/all mental domination)... but not a universal/overall powerup (I think   all.  that.  power.   is just Harry the Brute).  But the Rampires AFAIK never showed any Outsider-ish resistance to other WC wizards' magic (though that whole "Lords of Outer Night" is certainly evocative of some sort of relation to "Outsiders"), so I wouldn't expect the Starborn thing to give them any advantage.

Did he invest some "soulfire" into his pyrofuego -- even before Uriel's nudge & without conscious control -- making it (as we've been told) more of what it was, more of who Harry was (in that moment, Harry was a creature of desperation & rage) ... ?

Or was it some other (as-yet-unseen) feature of the Dresdenverse?  Jim kinda-sorta implies that, in his answer (but Jim loves to lead us astray sometimes; so).

[Mira]

Honestly, I'm inclined to think not:  I think being Starborn is an Outsider-specific thing (and possibly a general ability to (eventually) overcome any/all mental domination)... but not a universal/overall powerup (I think   all.  that.  power.   is just Harry the Brute).  But the Rampires AFAIK never showed any Outsider-ish resistance to other WC wizards' magic (though that whole "Lords of Outer Night" is certainly evocative of some sort of relation to "Outsiders"), so I wouldn't expect the Starborn thing to give them any advantage.

I think there are hints in White Night, basically in what Lash tells Harry, page 363

"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

Harry goes on to say that Outsiders are all but immune to magic, and even a team of the most powerful wizards on the planet can barely slow them down.  Lash counters that Harry defeated one at the age of sixteen.

Then on the next page 364 Lash tells him;

"Listen," Lasciel said, giving my head a little shake. "You have the potential to hold great power over them.  You may be able to escape the power now held over you."

Basically the huge advantage that Outsiders have over humans and other creatures is their ability to put a mental whammy on them.  It screws everything up, including the massive power that say a wizard like Eb can throw around.  The main power Harry got as a star born in my opinion,  is that the Outsider mental whammy has no effect on him.. Or if it does, he has the ability to fight it off and turn around and attack the Outsider. It isn't about physical power levels or special spells, but Harry's mental toughness.. Yet another clue, what is Harry always talking about and taking pride in?  His will, he believes he can take on the baddest asses on the planet because his will enables him to do it.  Think about when he defeated HWWB when he was sixteen, it wasn't because of some spell he wielded or his raw power.  He defeated him because he withstood HWWB's efforts to scare and intimidate him.  That's not to say that Harry wasn't a very frightened kid, but he wasn't paralyzed by that fear.  Harry taunted him back, actually frustrating HWWB, then when he got to the gas pumps, Harry blew them up and HWWB along with them.

[The_Sibelis]

Harry's motif in GP was fire, more so BECAUSE of the scene and it's related emotional response I think
Pyro fuego pyro. Can be translated with his intentions to do more. Say, HOT PASSION FIRE.

come to thunk it, that might be why he couldn't do the pocket full of sunshine after that specifically. He closed his aspect of happy light fire when he opened the floodgates of the metaphorical Man on Fire.

[Mira]

come to thunk it, that might be why he couldn't do the pocket full of sunshine after that specifically. He closed his aspect of happy light fire when he opened the floodgates of the metaphorical Man on Fire.

 Harry states I believe that after Susan was half turned and went away that he was never able to capture sunshine in a hanky again. 
 It has more to do with his own emotional state, which though he is more at peace now, the unhappiness remains, than any floodgates he opened. 

[The_Sibelis]

Harry states I believe that after Susan was half turned and went away that he was never able to capture sunshine in a hanky again. 
 It has more to do with his own emotional state, which though he is more at peace now, the unhappiness remains, than any floodgates he opened.

yoooi seriously, stip repeating exactly whf I just said likewise just didn't day it. Avoid me Mira. Periomd.  Not to day
Your literally repeating me word for word. Look I get it, double empathy your allistic and just don't understand how I think. I understand you just fine though. Atop replying to me, you literally repeat exactly what I said, an then someone will reply to you instead of me.
Might take other people longer, but I always see. See?

[g33k]

yoooi seriously, stip repeating exactly whf I just said likewise just didn't day it... 

Except she wasn't just "repeating" it.

For one thing, you used a specific jargon term, "aspect" (his aspect of happy light fire) which (depending on who is reading, and how much they know of the "extended canon") might be taken specifically as a reference to game-mechanics from the Dresden Files Roleplaying Game, where "aspects" are a Really Big Deal, and only change at "milestone" events.

For another, she was explicitly disagreeing with you (more to do with his own emotional state... than any floodgates he opened).

[The_Sibelis]

Except she wasn't just "repeating" it.

For one thing, you used a specific jargon term, "aspect" (his aspect of happy light fire) which (depending on who is reading, and how much they know of the "extended canon") might be taken specifically as a reference to game-mechanics from the Dresden Files Roleplaying Game, where "aspects" are a Really Big Deal, and only change at "milestone" events.

For another, she was explicitly disagreeing with you (more to do with his own emotional state... than any floodgates he opened).

actually that's a Symantec trap pulled before. An considering your alway the co-conspirator.. 👀  you rallying to her defense is less than anything to me.
Let me break that down properly then...

Harry states I believe that after Susan was half turned and went away that he was never able to capture sunshine in a hanky again. 

so, after Susan was changed, an he unleashed his passion and outrage, he couldn't do the hanky? 🤔  most auspiciously what i said...
 

It has more to do with his own emotional state, which though he is more at peace now, the unhappiness remains, than any floodgates he opened. 

the emotional state of a man on fire?
👏 yes. You prove my point most directly here. If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask. Because you also seem to think she disagreed. 👀  show me.
I've limited knowledge of the dfrp, my references were taken directly from the book. However, the game lore as I remember was so overlapping with the actual story they had to take things our so not to ruin future plots.
So thanks for bringing in the extracurricular evidence to back my theory 🙃 Harry's fire aspect changed because of how he used it. Intentions, even subconscious ones, color the magic used after all. An fire is directly related to sunlight aspect because it's all a flavor of summer as confirmed by hiding his blasting rod.
Maybe ask what a metaphorical man on fire is if you lack understanding of the concept off rip? Like hey, I didn't know that's the metaphor you gathered from Soul of the fire, Braveheart and other examples where the injustice of loss calls even the most broken men to war. Passion eh?

[Mira]

So thanks for bringing in the extracurricular evidence to back my theory 🙃 Harry's fire aspect changed because of how he used it. Intentions, even subconscious ones, color the magic used after all. An fire is directly related to sunlight aspect because it's all a flavor of summer as confirmed by hiding his blasting rod.
Maybe ask what a metaphorical man on fire is if you lack understanding of the concept off rip? Like hey, I didn't know that's the metaphor you gathered from Soul of the fire, Braveheart and other examples where the injustice of loss calls even the most broken men to war. Passion eh?

Capturing sunshine in his hanky and then not being able to duplicate the feat had nothing to do with how he used the sunshine.

Checked Reddit according to it, Harry told Murphy that he could no longer capture sunshine in his hanky or I imagine in anything else, because one has to be truly happyto be able to.  From the time that he lost Susan for the reasons stated until he had told Murphy that, Harry had never been truly happy so he couldn't do that feat again.  Now perhaps if he had tried it for the short time he and Murphy were truly together, he might have, if he tried, but we will never know because as far as we know, he didn't try.... But it's possible he did, because you never know when Harry might need a little sunshine in a future book.

so, after Susan was changed, an he unleashed his passion and outrage, he couldn't do the hanky? 🤔  most auspiciously what i said...
 

Passion and outrage had nothing to do with it, Harry had all those things, along with true happiness when he captured that sunbeam. Harry truly loved Susan, that made him profoundly happy, truly happy, a truly happy person can catch a sunbeam, it is as simple as that.. When Harry lost Susan that feeling of true happiness left him, capturing a sunbeam became impossible.