Have there been any . . .

[Lord Kinbote]

That's confirmed by Lash in White Night that Margaret didn't decide to conceive a star child until she met and fell in love with Malcolm.

I don't recall Lash's discussion around the circumstances of Harry's birth being that detailed.  Though even if it were, I don't consider Lash to be an honest narrator.  I guess I'll just have to keep reading and hope there's a conclusion that I get to.

[Mira]

I don't recall Lash's discussion around the circumstances of Harry's birth being that detailed.  Though even if it were, I don't consider Lash to be an honest narrator.  I guess I'll just have to keep reading and hope there's a conclusion that I get to.

She explains it in White Night page 363 hard back; bolding mine

"An Outsider," Lasciel said.  "I have felt such a presence before.  This attack is drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider."  Gosh that was interesting.  Not relevant, but interesting.
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, ""because of why you were born, Harry.  Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump:1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

Actually Harry was dubious as well, but Lash's comeback was how does he explain defeating an Outsider at the age of 16? And not just any Outsider but He Who Walks Behind, one of their most powerful knights.  Further confirmed by the hints that Margaret, herself gave Harry in his soul gaze with Thomas in Blood Rites, and his dream of his father at a campsite, I think that one was in Dead Beat.  Both parents sort of apologize to Harry for their decision when they conceived him, putting such a burden on him.  So yeah, in my opinion Lash was telling Harry the truth. 

[g33k]

... So far the only mortal we've seen with that kind of will power is Harry ...

Not even Harry (at least, not yet; not as of Changes).
The first time they met, Vadderung slammed Harry to the floor with raw willpower, no spell at all.

Harry tried to resist magically and was shocked to find no "spell" he could unravel, and a willpower so overwhelming that he was helpless.

[Mira]

Not even Harry (at least, not yet; not as of Changes).
The first time they met, Vadderung slammed Harry to the floor with raw willpower, no spell at all.

Harry tried to resist magically and was shocked to find no "spell" he could unravel, and a willpower so overwhelming that he was helpless.

But Vadderung isn't human, he is the god Odin, ergo not a mortal.. Nor is he an Outsider...

Note what Lash told Harry again;

There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

Wield power over Outsiders, not gods... Also will isn't just about physical power, it was Harry's mental will that resisted Lasciel's Shadow, not any physical power or magical power that he has.  Also I guess one could argue that at the time Vadderung did that, though he is always talking about his will, at that time, and maybe even now Harry has no clue as to how strong he can be or will be.

[vincentric]

We know that mortals can wear Winterfae mantles, otherwise there'd be no queens. The willpower factor is just how much control over the mantle they can exert and how much humanity they retain.

Michael would be the best option for Kringle though.

[Mira]

We know that mortals can wear Winterfae mantles, otherwise there'd be no queens. The willpower factor is just how much control over the mantle they can exert and how much humanity they retain.

Michael would be the best option for Kringle though.

 We know they can wear the four, Mother,Queen,Lady, Knight, but it cannot be assumed without evidence that it is true for the other mantles. 

[g33k]

But Vadderung isn't human, he is the god Odin, ergo not a mortal.. Nor is he an Outsider...

You had alleged:

... So far the only mortal we've seen with that kind of will power is Harry ...

My point was that Harry hasn't shown us that kind of willpower (at least not yet), the kind necessary to don the Kringlemantle... ideally, without becoming subsumed in that identity!

Harry has shown us that in a will-vs-will contest he gets (literally) CRUSHED by the current (and only known) guy to wear the Kringlemantle.

Now... I do agree that Harry has depths he has yet to plumb; and that his power (and willpower) are growing(*).

I suspect that Harry couldn't (yet) handle the Kringlemantle... but might eventually be able to.



(*) I suspect Uriel and Mab have each been actively curating an ever-more-stringent suite of challenges with the aim of getting Harry BAT-ready; it is that Mab&Uriel action (as much as any "Black Council" and/or "Cowl" and/or "Nemesis" plans) which is responsible for Harry's "curated" Dresdenstagram(tm) lifestyle.

[Mira]

Harry has shown us that in a will-vs-will contest he gets (literally) CRUSHED by the current (and only known) guy to wear the Kringlemantle.

Again, we are talking about someone not human, but a god..   Also his power is supposedly over Outsiders.  Having the willpower doesn't mean he wins every time, but he has the will to put up a fight and resist.  Also after the wild hunt Harry suggested that at some point he could kick Kringle's ass, and Kringle replied that he could try, and he might..

[LordDresden2]

Oh, I don't think they "ordered" Margaret around.... They lured her into doing what they wanted, making her think it was her own plan.

Margaret LeFey was extraordinarily adept with faerie ways, but Mab is just on another level...  Mab manipulated Nic & Anduriel.  Manipulating Maggie Sr. would be childs' play.

I actually rather suspect that Margaret was probably kind of easy to manipulate, if you once got to know her and got a sense of her ego.  People with rebellious, 'you can't make me!' personalities are often easy to manipulate by people who are more realistic/adult/practical.  You just make it seem like it's their idea and they're defying you.  Con artists know that people who pride themselves on their own high intelligence are often esp. good marks. (Pride being the key word, not intelligence.)

Margaret herself told Harry (via her simulacrum in Blood Rites) that she had been 'so arrogant'. 

That's confirmed by Lash in White Night that Margaret didn't decide to conceive a star child until she met and fell in love with Malcolm.

No, it isn't.  Lash told Harry that it was not a coincidence that Margaret broke free when she did, or that he was born when and under the circumstances he was, but she never said that any of that planning was on Margaret's part.  There are any number of higher or lower powers in the DV that might have been chessmastering.

[Mira]

No, it isn't.  Lash told Harry that it was not a coincidence that Margaret broke free when she did, or that he was born when and under the circumstances he was, but she never said that any of that planning was on Margaret's part.  There are any number of higher or lower powers in the DV that might have been chessmastering.

She may not have been the mastermind, but neither was she a mere pawn on the chess board.  As a chess board piece,  she may have ranked as high as queen.. She had to ability to move in any direction on the board.. Move she did, and then was sacrificed.

[vincentric]

We know they can wear the four, Mother, Queen, Lady, Knight, but it cannot be assumed without evidence that it is true for the other mantles.

Since we know that some can be worn, it's safer to believe that others can be also. Unless you have evidence that states that these mantles are special. They very well could be, but in absence of the statement of a special case, then we should apply the general rule.

[g33k]

Since we know that some can be worn, it's safer to believe that others can be also. Unless you have evidence that states that these mantles are special. They very well could be, but in absence of the statement of a special case, then we should apply the general rule.

Agreed; the Queenmantles are *incredibly* powerful, but can be worn by humans.
I don't think any of them (other than the Mothers) will be tougher to handle.

[Mira]

Agreed; the Queenmantles are *incredibly* powerful, but can be worn by humans.
I don't think any of them (other than the Mothers) will be tougher to handle.

We don't know though, we know that the Knights of the Winter Court have a very hard time.  Though that maybe a point of view.. It also isn't a picnic for the Ladies of ether Court, again depends on perspective I suppose.. Since we've had no new Queens, Mothers, or Others on page anyway, we don't know if they also have had problems adjusting to their new power or their power i.e. the mantle adjusting to them..

[g33k]

We don't know though, we know that the Knights of the Winter Court have a very hard time.  Though that maybe a point of view.. It also isn't a picnic for the Ladies of ether Court, again depends on perspective I suppose.. Since we've had no new Queens, Mothers, or Others on page anyway, we don't know if they also have had problems adjusting to their new power or their power i.e. the mantle adjusting to them..

Bob's testimony is that within (IIRC) 10ish years, the Winter Ladymantle will largely override the will of the bearer.  "Welcome to the new Maeve, just like the old Maeve," he says.

I think we are seeing some signs that Molly is being more resilient than that... but only some signs (I cannot imagine pre-Mantle Molly exacting a price of any sort to do protective spellwork for Harry (as just one example)), with Winter Law remaining inviolable.

Agreed that the WK-mantle is "tough" on the Knights.  But I think that's largely a matter of Winter being inherently harsh & brutal; I expect the SK-mantle gets its way more with gentle pressure, continuous sensuality, temptations of all sorts.

[LordDresden2]

She may not have been the mastermind, but neither was she a mere pawn on the chess board.  As a chess board piece,  she may have ranked as high as queen..

Maybe, but based on what her simulacrum said, and what others have said about her, I suspect she was at best a rook or a bishop, not a queen.  Though I'm sure she thought she was a queen at one stage. :lol:

I'm fairly confident that at one time, Margaret absolutely would have considered herself to be a chessmistress, even as people like Lord Raith and Heaven only knows who else were pulling her strings and pushing her buttons. 

IIRC, JB has said that one of Margaret's motives for getting entangled with LR in the first place was that she wanted some supersex.  Which is not all that different from deliberately seeking out heroin or crack cocaine for the thrill, except that it's worse in that in this case the heroin is sapient and can plot against you.  It's not the sort of self-destructive move that a genuine chessmaster would be likely to indulge.