Harry is a Dad...Again..😳

[Mira]

Now that I think about the sex: the random joggers were at the beginning of Dead Beat when Thomas already lived with Harry for one year. Confirmed by the timeline https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline#sf
During that time, Justine was still at the Raith mansion, recovering from Blood Rites.
I am guessing the (fake) true love magic started after she got better and they started to have sex again. Was this during White Night? If yes, it would be 2 years after Dead Beat.

I don't think they had sex of any kind from Blood Rites until after that scene in Ghost Story when Justine came home with her lesbian friend, had sex with her, which broke her true love protection.  That was the point of that scene once there was true love between them, Thomas couldn't touch Justine without being burnt, so up to that scene no sex between them.  That was the point of the scene in the bar or night club where happy Thomas has his arm around Justine which surprises Harry, and they show him she is wearing a special skin tight rubber suit so he really isn't touching her.  I don't think I dreamed that scene, but I cannot remember which book it is from.

[Dina]

You did not dream the rubber suit scene, I remember that too. i do not remember the book.
I also forgot it was a lesbian friend who they use to break Justine's protection. That contradicts what Jim said before, about the potential for life.

[vincentric]

Thinking back, we don't actually know that Thomas has the protection, just that Justine does.

Justine burns Thomas and Madeleine, but Madeleine is not burned by Thomas. After Ghost Story and Cold Days, he regularly visited the Svartalves, so if he had it, it was frequently removed. He certainly does not burn Lara on the trip to Demonreach in Peace Talks. Perhaps the protection does not protect WC vampires.

[Mira]

Thinking back, we don't actually know that Thomas has the protection, just that Justine does.

Justine burns Thomas and Madeleine, but Madeleine is not burned by Thomas. After Ghost Story and Cold Days, he regularly visited the Svartalves, so if he had it, it was frequently removed. He certainly does not burn Lara on the trip to Demonreach in Peace Talks. Perhaps the protection does not protect WC vampires.

Agreed, we also know if true love happens before the first feeding, the Hunger Demon can be burned out.  That was the hope for Inari in Blood Rites.  Thomas had his first feeding until death and his demon is engaged, he is a WCV.. It would make sense that once that happens the host shouldn't be able to feel true love again, because why would the parasite want to die once it matures and is feeding.. I know want is a poor word to use, but the parasite/demon depends on the host feeding to survive..  Vamps can feel love, Thomas loved Justine, supposedly true love, and Lara loves her little brother, a different kind of love..  Maybe it is something that superficially sounds cool, but doesn't stand up to logic if you think too deeply about it?  Or the reason it doesn't stand up is Justine has never felt true love for Thomas, and it's been a Nemesis set up all along.. 

[g33k]

... That contradicts what Jim said before, about the potential for life.

This is a very interesting point.
Did Jim mess up?  Or has he dropped a clue?
Or just changed his mind, and retcon'ed the "true love" protection to include same-sex couples?

Maybe  future stories will reveal things; or maybe someone could ask a pointed question during an AMA or other Q&A event.

Or maybe we'll wonder 'til the very end, because Jim's an Evil Bastad^(tm).

[g33k]

... If I remember correctly, Justine started to be herself again in White Night, when she lead Harry and Carlos to the Raith Deeps. This would also have been the time when she and Thomas started being together again...

If I recall correctly:
 - That was the first time we saw her "being herself again" onscreen, but her self-report was that it had been happening for a while (and she displayed lots of broad awareness of the larger situation, just as if she had largely been compos mentis for a good long time)
 - She wasn't yet being with Thomas, but said she expected she'd be able "to go back to her lord" soon.

[g33k]

... After Ghost Story and Cold Days, he regularly visited the Svartalves, so if he had it, it was frequently removed ...

We know that -- as of the end of Ghost Story -- Thomas & Justine regularly removed the protection (or, if the theory of a Nemesis-fueled pseudo-protection is correct:  Justine pretended to remove a protection that was never there).

Does seem kind of odd to anyone else that Thomas would be regularly visiting the Svartalves to sate his Hunger, when he & Justine have a very-workable solution at home...?

Maybe it's just that -- as with Connie Barrowill & Irwin Pounder -- a powerful nonhuman is simply a method he's using to eat deeply & satisfy the Hunger without killing a mortal.  But still, something "feels off" to me, in this.

[g33k]

... That contradicts what Jim said before, about the potential for life.

Also:  can you provide a cite?
Not that I doubt you, but I'd like to go read it for more context, other clues, etc.

[vincentric]

We know that -- as of the end of Ghost Story -- Thomas & Justine regularly removed the protection (or, if the theory of a Nemesis-fueled pseudo-protection is correct:  Justine pretended to remove a protection that was never there).

Does seem kind of odd to anyone else that Thomas would be regularly visiting the Svartalves to sate his Hunger, when he & Justine have a very-workable solution at home...?

Maybe it's just that -- as with Connie Barrowill & Irwin Pounder -- a powerful nonhuman is simply a method he's using to eat deeply & satisfy the Hunger without killing a mortal.  But still, something "feels off" to me, in this.

Convenience probably. The arrangement with the Svartalves removes the need to search for human partners though there's no indication one way or another that they stopped using them. Thomas feeding from a number of sources looks more normal to other WC vampires also, so less threat to Justine from that angle.

[Dina]

Also:  can you provide a cite?
Not that I doubt you, but I'd like to go read it for more context, other clues, etc.

Ok people, I definitely was wrong. And of course I am very, very sorry. In answer to this I've been checking and I found what I quote below. I swear I was not dreaming. I am sure in some moment Jim said the Protection involved the potential for creating life (more or less like the sex magic in the books). But apparently many years ago he said another thing...and I do not if this helps us or not. Personally I am much more confused, because if True Love is, well, you know, just love, then how can it be so easily broken? I don't know, see for yourselves.

Source: https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/
2009 Lexington signing:
Q:  What protections are there against the White Court? 
A:  True love – real true love, not just romantic love – protects only against WC vamps feeding through lust/intimacy.
2010 Lee’s Summit signing
Q:  Do you have to have sex in order to have protection from the White Court?
A:  No, you don’t have to.  It is helpful, though.
Q:  Can homosexuals be protected from the White Court?
A:  Of course.  Any time it is Real Love between equals, there’s the possibility of protection.  A parent and child couldn’t be protected because they are not equals.

[LordDresden2]

Agreed, we also know if true love happens before the first feeding, the Hunger Demon can be burned out.  That was the hope for Inari in Blood Rites.  Thomas had his first feeding until death and his demon is engaged, he is a WCV.. It would make sense that once that happens the host shouldn't be able to feel true love again, because why would the parasite want to die once it matures and is feeding.. I know want is a poor word to use, but the parasite/demon depends on the host feeding to survive..

The demon can't really prevent the WV from feeling/experiencing love, or anything else.  A WV is still a human, with all that that implies.

 Vamps can feel love, Thomas loved Justine, supposedly true love, and Lara loves her little brother, a different kind of love..  Maybe it is something that superficially sounds cool, but doesn't stand up to logic if you think too deeply about it? 

There's isn't any contradiction.

To produce the protection effect, there has to be genuine, self-abnegating love on both sides.  Sexual intercourse transfers energy from one to the other, not just fluids.  If that mutual love is present, the energy from the other person will then burn a WC vampire that tries to feed on it...even if that energy came from that WV.

Subsequent sex without love transfers energy as well, which wipes away/drowns out/covers the protective energy, and after that the person is vulnerable again.  Note that even if two people are protected after a single encounter, one of them can have sex with someone else and lose the protection, while the other still has it.

Can the personal energy transfer by means other than sex?  JB has said yes, at least in theory, but we've only ever seen it work with sex.  Apparently even a hug transfers a little energy from person to person, from what Bob has said.  Maybe an intense enough love might provide protection from no more than an embrace, but we've never seen it happen.

The fact that Justine burns Thomas indicates that there was indeed mutual love present when they were together.  It wouldn't work otherwise.

[LordDresden2]

Did she?  Or can Nemesis mimic true love so that Thomas would truly believe she loved him?

The protection doesn't depend on belief, it depends on the actual presence of mutual Love.  Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.

[Regenbogen]

The protection doesn't depend on belief, it depends on the actual presence of mutual Love.  Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.

What makes you think that Nemesis isn't able to maintain the deception.
I believe he can.


@all

True love – real true love, not just romantic love – protects only against WC vamps feeding through lust/intimacy.

Also, I have thought about this concept of true love. When is it true love instead of just love? And does that mean that not every kind of romantic love between equals is true love? What is it then? What is the difference?

Any time it is Real Love between equals, there’s the possibility of protection. 

So it is just any real love. But what is it that triggers the protection?

Is it the mutual will to selfless sacrifice oneself? Ok, so what if the will is there but there is no opportunity to act on it? Is there still protection.
The quote only says "the possibility of protection", so not all couples who truly love are protected automatically. There must be a trigger not all couples experience. Otherwise it wouldn't be so rare.

We don't have many true love examples in the books:

#1 Harry twice: Susan and later Murphy.
Susan: Harry was willing to sacrifice himself to safe her in Grave Peril. He went into the Rampires' stronghold to safe her, completely disregarding the consequences.

Murphy: they saved each other's lives several times.

#2 Thomas and Justine: though I honestly doubt , that it is real, because I believe that Nemesis can fake it really well.


#3 the unknown owner of the wedding ring which burned Lara's hand. Story told by Thomas.

Q:  Do you have to have sex in order to have protection from the White Court?
A:  No, you don’t have to.  It is helpful, though.

So what now? 
The protection can be there without sex. But when having sex with someone else, you can easily break this powerful protection that is so hard to come by. So bad cards for true love couples who prefer swinger club activities, lol.

[Mira]

The protection doesn't depend on belief, it depends on the actual presence of mutual Love.  Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.

I think it would be a mistake to believe that Nemesis isn't capable of that, that's why they are such a threat.  Yes, the protection depends on the presence of actual mutual love, but how do you define that exactly?  True love has nothing to do with sex..  Sex can be be better with it, but you can enjoy sex without any love at all.  Sex is a physical act, true love is an emotional state, one that is quite complicated.

To produce the protection effect, there has to be genuine, self-abnegating love on both sides.  Sexual intercourse transfers energy from one to the other, not just fluids.  If that mutual love is present, the energy from the other person will then burn a WC vampire that tries to feed on it...even if that energy came from that WV.

I remember reading that even a wedding ring of someone sharing true love will burn a WCV.  Again true love doesn't depend on sex!  What about unrequited love?  One person can truly love another and that love isn't returned.  Is that person protected?  The emotion is present, so why not?

We don't have many true love examples in the books:

What about Michael and Charity, I'd say they truly love one another.. I think Malcolm and Margaret truly loved one another.  I think Gard was truly in love.

So what now? 
The protection can be there without sex. But when having sex with someone else, you can easily break this powerful protection that is so hard to come by. So bad cards for true love couples who prefer swinger club activities, lol.

Which makes no sense and cheapens the meaning of what true love is..  True love isn't a fragile thing, poor judgement under the influence shouldn't break it.. One can make a mistake, and the partner who truly loves that person can sincerely forgive that mistake.. Is the protection broken in that case?

Also, I have thought about this concept of true love. When is it true love instead of just love? And does that mean that not every kind of romantic love between equals is true love? What is it then? What is the difference?

I think they are intertwined, physical attraction can lead to falling in love.  However one can fall out of love as easily as one falls in love, very fragile at this state.  Next comes actually being in love, it's stronger, there is commitment there between the couple, often leads to marriage or cohabitation. However while it might lead to true love, it doesn't mean that the couple are in a state of true love.  So what is true love?  It involves a lot of tolerance for starters on the part of both partners, the ability to see beyond all the faults of the other, to see the good and want to share your soul with the other.. That might be trite crap, but that's my opinion of what true love is for what it's worth.

Ok people, I definitely was wrong. And of course I am very, very sorry. In answer to this I've been checking and I found what I quote below. I swear I was not dreaming. I am sure in some moment Jim said the Protection involved the potential for creating life (more or less like the sex magic in the books). But apparently many years ago he said another thing...and I do not if this helps us or not. Personally I am much more confused, because if True Love is, well, you know, just love, then how can it be so easily broken? I don't know, see for yourselves.

I agree Dina, true love isn't easily broken, not by a bit of unfaithfulness, because true love often defies logic.  More confusing, the partner who was unfaithful may lose protection, but should the faithful one, who still might truly love the other lose his or hers?

[Regenbogen]

What about Michael and Charity, I'd say they truly love one another.. I think Malcolm and Margaret truly loved one another.  I think Gard was truly in love.

I agree, I suppose this is true love.
But what I meant to say: there is no evidence in the books that for example Michael and Charity are protected. I mean they are already under protection of the angels.
Did Thomas ever go into their house? I can't remember. Did Thomas ever touch either of them? Maybe I'll put special emphasis on looking for those moments during my next reread.

With Margaret and Malcolm I think it is implied that they were protected from Lord Raith somehow, probably by true love, but again there is no clear evidence in the book. One can just assume.

Also no evidence with Gard and Hendricks.  They loved each other, but was it really true love? Or just mutual attraction and admiration? Or just love love, not true love.