Author Topic: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳  (Read 9702 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2024, 03:25:50 PM »
...  Nemesis would have to initiate the burn when, and only when, a WV tries to feed on her.  Which means Nemesis would have to accurately assess the mental state and intentions of every WV that touched Justine, to know whether the contact was a feeding attempt or not.  If Lara accidentally brushes Justine's arm in the course of a day, and kept her Hunger leashed (as she usually does) and gets burned anyway...

As for whether Nemesis can do that...well, yeah, maybe it can.  We don't have any definite data to say it can't.  But we also don't have any definite data in the other direction.  It's pure guesswork.

Here's where Occam's Razor cuts usefully.

Given that "feeding" is -- as you say -- explicitly at attempt to drain energy from the victim, Nemesis has NO NEED to "assess the mental state and intentions" of the whampire.

"Was my host psychically assaulted during that contact" is a very simple test; that test + an automatic "if so, burn whoever attempted the assault" both seem well within the power of a Walker.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 08:56:06 PM by g33k »

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2024, 03:51:22 PM »
Given that "feeding" is -- as you say -- explicitly at attempt to drain energy from the victim, Nemesis has NO NEED to "assess the mental state and intentions" of the whampire.

"Was my host psychically assaulted during that contact" is a very simple test, and an automatic "if so, burn whoever attempted the assault" both seem well within the power of a Walker.

Indeed!

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2024, 09:06:49 PM »
Aren't they? How so? The protection is created by the emotion> The protection remains as long as the emotion remains..

No.  The protection remains as long as nothing wipes it away.  Once created, it exists independently.  Even if the love dies between the principals, the protection remains until it is undone.

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The protection isn't something that exists in a vacuum, it is fed by the emotion of true love.

Yes, in the moment of the sexual act.  Then it exists separately.

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Oh it does, if it includes rape, which is an act of violence done through sex..

Having been thinking about this since I posted yesterday, I'm not sure rape would undo it.  There are two reasons for that, one theoretical and one practical.  The theory reason is that we don't know if that exchange of soul-energy happens in non-consensual sex, AFAIK JB has never said either way.  If it didn't, the original protection would probably endure.

The practical reason is that a White Vampire could then overcome the protection either by restraining his/her Hunger longer enough to carry out a rape, or assigning a minion to do it, or hiring it done, and then feed.  We've never seen or heard of anybody doing that that I recall, so possibly it wouldn't work.

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 ??? Protection is caused by love, but not love in of itself?  Really? No, something else is going on here, people make love all of the time, for many reasons, but very few of them experience true love.  Or the kind of true love that the Hunger Demon is allergic to.  Harry never ceased to love Susan even when she was absent all of those years, thus he was protected. 


No.  Harry's love for Susan cannot protect him, it can only protect Susan.  It's Susan's love for Harry that protects him.  It's the other-focus of love, the prioritization of the other over oneself, that produces the protection.  You can't shield yourself, at least not that way.

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When he met Luccio he was ready to move on, he did, he was no longer held back by the emotion he had felt for Susan.  Thus he lost his protection. 

No, he lost his protection when he had sex with Luccio.  With or without his continuing love for Susan, that would undo the protection, because Susan's protective energy would no longer be present in Harry.  It would be replaced by Stacy's, and she doesn't love him, so it doesn't make his own energy poisonous to WVs.

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It is also possible that his protection continued even if Susan no loved him after she left for South America.

It certainly did.  He had it up until Luccio.

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There is a problem there though, Harry still loved Susan, but at the time that Lara was burned from contact with him,  there was a good chance that Susan had already moved on emotionally from him.. Really?  Seems to me as long as the true love exists it's like getting a booster shot.

Not unless they had sex in the meantime.  Otherwise there's no way for the 'booster shot' to reach the protectee.

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As long as the true love emotion is felt by the would be victim, the Hunger Demon is going to have an allergic reaction and the host vampire is going to feel the burn.

Nope.  Not unless he or she hasn't had sex with someone else in the meantime.  Otherwise he or she is going to be vampire chow.

Remember, the key to the protection is the soul-energy transferred during sex (and other times in theory according to JB).  Normally, it doesn't matter to a WV, but if it's tainted with Love.  It makes the food poisonous.  That energy has to be present to provide the protection.  It has to get from one person to the other, and sex is the only route we've seen.

It's not just the emotion and will by themselves, it's the energy tained by them.  That energy remains in place, once transferred, until replaced.  But if it gets replaced, it's gone.

The energy transfers with any sex, but it's only a problem for the WVs if its tainted by love at the time of the transfer.

Although, I do recall Lara mentioning that sexual virgins are especially appealing to WVs.  That might be related to the absence of any interfering presence on the 'fresh food'.

The protection will last for life, if it's not removed, regardless of the status of the relationship or the emotions after it's created.  Likewise, it can be removed regardless of the status of those things afterward.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2024, 12:39:35 PM »


  What exactly does JB say on the subject?  Where are the WOJs?

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2024, 04:24:48 PM »

  What exactly does JB say on the subject?  Where are the WOJs?

I think Mira is right, @LordDresden2 -- you're asserting quite a few things as "fact" that (as best I remember) aren't overtly stated in the books' canon or in WoJ's.

I don't think everything Jim has "implied" to be true in the Dresdenverse actually is true...  And so conclusions from implications seem dubious in the extreme.

Offline Dina

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2024, 05:13:15 AM »
I am a tad confused here. I always thought that the love one feels is the thing that protects one (after it clicked with a sexual act). But that is not right. We know Harry realized Luccio did not love him when he realized HE was not protected. So it seems LordDresden2 is right, that is the love of your partner which protects you. But I do not think once established the protections lasts pretty much for ever (except sex with other people breaks it). I think it only lasts while you still keep your love. In my opinion, if Harry had stopped loving Susan, his protection would have disappeared, even if Harry had not had sex with other person. Sex with Luccio broke it. And then, sex with Murphy restored it and, I think, it is still happening, because Harry still loves him. But I guess we will have to wait and see.
Also, in case anyone is interested, I have a new theory about how Harry can stop being the WK. It is not my favourite theory but it is a plausible one. Murphy will be back in some way that NOBODY will recognize her. She will be involved in the BAT and, for some reason, she will crossed Mab. Mab will order Harry to take her down, thus breaking their deal of not ordering Harry to lay a hand on someone he loved.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2024, 05:23:22 AM »
I am a tad confused here. I always thought that the love one feels is the thing that protects one (after it clicked with a sexual act). But that is not right. We know Harry realized Luccio did not love him when he realized HE was not protected. So it seems LordDresden2 is right, that is the love of your partner which protects you. But I do not think once established the protections lasts pretty much for ever (except sex with other people breaks it). I think it only lasts while you still keep your love. In my opinion, if Harry had stopped loving Susan, his protection would have disappeared, even if Harry had not had sex with other person.

I strongly suspect Harry stopped loving Susan after he discovered she had hidden Maggie's existence from him.

But the protection, once formed, isn't in the emotions of the protected, it's in their life-energy.  It's like a suit of armor the other person wrapped around them.  Until it's destroyed/removed/whatever it is that happens, it's there.

Inanimate objects can't love in themselves, but they can be wrapped in that same energy if they become a symbol of mutual love, and it'll burn a WV, as witness Lara's scared hand.  (I still wonder if that wedding ring in question might not have been hers, when she was younger.)

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Also, in case anyone is interested, I have a new theory about how Harry can stop being the WK. It is not my favourite theory but it is a plausible one. Murphy will be back in some way that NOBODY will recognize her. She will be involved in the BAT and, for some reason, she will crossed Mab. Mab will order Harry to take her down, thus breaking their deal of not ordering Harry to lay a hand on someone he loved.

I could almost imagine that happening, esp. if Mab did it on purpose to produce just exactly that result.  On one level, I'm not sure Mab CAN knowingly break a deal...but then again, is Valkyrie-Murphy Murphy?  Or is it like Odin/Santa?  Fae Law hinges on technicalities and 'from a certain point of view', after all.

I don't think it's an accident, though, that Mab told Harry once that he was the most promising knight she had had since Tam Lin, or words to that effect.  The interesting thing about that is that the story of Tam Lin is about someone who escapes from the control of the Sidhe.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 05:30:43 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2024, 05:27:02 AM »
I think Mira is right, @LordDresden2 -- you're asserting quite a few things as "fact" that (as best I remember) aren't overtly stated in the books' canon or in WoJ's.

I don't think everything Jim has "implied" to be true in the Dresdenverse actually is true...  And so conclusions from implications seem dubious in the extreme.

Most of what I said was stated outright in either Blood Rites, White Night, or Turn Coat. Granted, it's stated by characters in story, so it's always possible they're wrong or incomplete, but it's coming from people in a position to know.

It's true that nobody has ever said the protection is eternal, but nobody has ever said, or implied, that it isn't, unless it gets wiped away.  So yeah, maybe it might wear off eventually with time or something, but there's no more evidence for that than against it.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 05:29:00 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry is a Dad...Again..😳
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2024, 02:02:07 PM »
Most of what I said was stated outright in either Blood Rites, White Night, or Turn Coat. Granted, it's stated by characters in story, so it's always possible they're wrong or incomplete, but it's coming from people in a position to know.

It's true that nobody has ever said the protection is eternal, but nobody has ever said, or implied, that it isn't, unless it gets wiped away.  So yeah, maybe it might wear off eventually with time or something, but there's no more evidence for that than against it.

No, it isn't stated outright in those books, it's your read of what is stated in those books.  Some of us read what was said differently, and what is said is just ambiguous enough that there is truth in both.  The author in a long series has to leave some wiggle room.