Harry is a Dad...Again..😳

[g33k]

...  Nemesis would have to do more than make Thomas believe it, it would have to be able to produce the burn when a WV tries to feed, to maintain such a deception.

This hardly seems insurmountable.

Nemesis is a Walker, one of the most-powerful of all Outsiders.

If Justine is Nemfected, it hardly seems outside Nemesis' power to create some burns when a whampire touches her.
 

[Regenbogen]

This hardly seems insurmountable.

Nemesis is a Walker, one of the most-powerful of all Outsiders.

If Justine is Nemfected, it hardly seems outside Nemesis' power to create some burns when a whampire touches her.

Exactly. Or to curse an object to cause burns whenever touched by a vampire.

[g33k]

... With Margaret and Malcolm I think it is implied that they were protected from Lord Raith somehow, probably by true love, but again there is no clear evidence in the book. One can just assume ...

I think Margaret probably had a very good idea what sorts of magical resources Papa Raith had available; whampire's I think can have minor magical gifts, but cannot be very-potent as wizards (not nearly at the White Council level!).

One of the things Harry has stressed (repeatedly) is:  when a WC Wizard knows what they face, they can often prepare an overwhelming counter to that.

Add to that:  Margaret LaFey may have had bargains in place to prevent being tracked; if not, she likely arranged them ASAP after leaving Papa Raith!  And we know (from Turn Coat, where Morgan bargained with the fae for this) how the Fae can & will make somebody untraceable; I expect Lea (and certainly Mab!) can do the same as Morgan got from Summer.

[Dina]

Michael has burnt vampires at the party that was Susan's downfall, but I think those were rampires. I do not remember anything about white. I believe Thomas and Michael avoid touched each other when they met. Nevertheless I have a feeling Michael-Charity is not True Love. Nor Malcolm-Margaret.  I think (absolutely not proof, just my interpretation) that for True Love you have to give yourself completely to your partner. Charity hid a part of herself to Michael, her magical side. And Margaret, I think, hid even more from Malcolm.

About unrequited love, no, I believe that is not enough. Harry loved Luccio, but she did not love him back. And Harry was not protected.

[Mira]

I agree, I suppose this is true love.
But what I meant to say: there is no evidence in the books that for example Michael and Charity are protected. I mean they are already under protection of the angels.
Did Thomas ever go into their house? I can't remember. Did Thomas ever touch either of them? Maybe I'll put special emphasis on looking for those moments during my next reread.

With Margaret and Malcolm I think it is implied that they were protected from Lord Raith somehow, probably by true love, but again there is no clear evidence in the book. One can just assume.

Also no evidence with Gard and Hendricks.  They loved each other, but was it really true love? Or just mutual attraction and admiration? Or just love love, not true love.

As in where any of the above touched or the attempt to be fed upon?  No, no proof of protection on page, but do you need that kind of proof of true love for the above mentioned?  Like the Supreme Court Justice said about pornography, "he knew when he saw it.."   

Michael has burnt vampires at the party that was Susan's downfall, but I think those were rampires. I do not remember anything about white. I believe Thomas and Michael avoid touched each other when they met. Nevertheless I have a feeling Michael-Charity is not True Love. Nor Malcolm-Margaret.  I think (absolutely not proof, just my interpretation) that for True Love you have to give yourself completely to your partner. Charity hid a part of herself to Michael, her magical side. And Margaret, I think, hid even more from Malcolm.

I don't think Charity hid that from Michael, he loved her in spite of it, and she loved him so much she was able to give up magic all together.  Something according to Langtree, especially once they've started down the dark magic path is almost impossible to do.  Charity by her own admission had started down that dark path, only true love could do such a thing I think.  Margaret knew leaving Raith for Malcolm would mean her death at some point, yet she did it and gave up her former ways, I also think true love had something to do with that. 

[Dina]

Of course both couples love each other too much, I just do not think it is True Love with the arbitrary laws in the Dresden Universe. Anyway, it is my personal opinion, nothing in canon.

[Mira]

Of course both couples love each other too much, I just do not think it is True Love with the arbitrary laws in the Dresden Universe. Anyway, it is my personal opinion, nothing in canon.

 You could be right, here is a thought I had, while what Harry felt for Susan was true love, I am not so sure she felt the same way about him.  Or what if Harry has no protection now, it is because what he and Murphy felt for one another wasn't really true love?  Like I said, the idea of true love protecting one against a WCV and that it very fragile is a cool idea, but if the reader thinks too deeply about it, it doesn't work at all.

[g33k]

... Or what if Harry has no protection now, it is because what he and Murphy felt for one another wasn't really true love? ...

We know Harry was protected during Peace Talks -- he burned Lara (surprising them both).

AFAIK, we don't know anything about after Rudy killed Murphy.
 

[g33k]

... I don't think Charity hid that from Michael ...

I am quite certain that she did.
She was desperate that Harry not tell Michael, or anyone else in her family.
Later -- driving Michael & Molly home from the warehouse where Harry managed to get the Doom levied -- Michael wondered how Molly could have wound up with magic, begins to ask about heritibility, and Harry has to fast-talk Michael to hide Charity's secret.

Now... Michael isn't a stupid man; when it comes to matters supernatural, he is in fact quite clued-in.  It's entirely-possible that he realized how important it was to Charity not to have to admit to Michael that she has been a wicked sorceress, and he allowed Charity & Harry to think he hadn't seen through the deception.  Or not.

But if he knows -- Charity isn't the one who told Michael.

[Mira]

We know Harry was protected during Peace Talks -- he burned Lara (surprising them both).

AFAIK, we don't know anything about after Rudy killed Murphy.

I don't remember that..  Do you have the chapter?  I don't doubt you, but I want to read for context.  And since he hasn't had sexual contact since, no reason why he still wouldn't be protected. 

Yeah, Michael would know, one of his angels would have told him, who knows Charity may have been a redemption project all along, love was as bonus.

[vincentric]

It happens when they are rescuing Thomas.

Lara is doubly surprised because Harry wasn't protected when they sparred with staves the day before but burns her after they strip to descend the dumbwaiter shaft and brush elbows. Lara immediately guesses that he was with Murphy and congratulates him. Harry gets a boost because it confirms to him that the thing with Murphy is real.

[Mira]

It happens when they are rescuing Thomas.

Lara is doubly surprised because Harry wasn't protected when they sparred with staves the day before but burns her after they strip to descend the dumbwaiter shaft and brush elbows. Lara immediately guesses that he was with Murphy and congratulates him. Harry gets a boost because it confirms to him that the thing with Murphy is real.

Thanks

[g33k]

... And since he hasn't had sexual contact since, no reason why he still wouldn't be protected ...

We don't know that.
The protection may not survive the death of the loved one; or it may... afaik neither WoJ nor canon stories have spoken to the matter.

... Yeah, Michael would know, one of his angels would have told him, who knows Charity may have been a redemption project all along ...

I'm sure Charity's redemption was part of "the plan all along," but also I'm sure the angels would not have told Michael:  directly contravening mortal free will (such as violating a deep dark secret) is one of the things that Angels Do Not Do.

[LordDresden2]

Also, I have thought about this concept of true love. When is it true love instead of just love? And does that mean that not every kind of romantic love between equals is true love?

Yes, that's exactly what it means.  JB has said specifically that 'romantic love', meaning the fantasy that the diamond mongers and the advertising industry and the chocolate companies and Hollywood peddles, won't cut it.  That's self-centered, it's about living out a fantasy, and about hormones and infatuation.

Which can be misleading because the real thing can of course also include that sort of romantic gesture or symbol, and of course a couple who does have the real thing can also be sexually attracted and hot for each other.  But it's ancillary to the core of it.

 



Is it the mutual will to selfless sacrifice oneself? Ok, so what if the will is there but there is no opportunity to act on it? Is there still protection.

Yes, if the will is genuinely there and there is a sexual interaction to transfer the 'tainted' (from the Hunger POV) energy.

The quote only says "the possibility of protection", so not all couples who truly love are protected automatically. There must be a trigger not all couples experience. Otherwise it wouldn't be so rare.

It's not so rare as all that.  It isn't necessarily common, but it's not that 1 in a million ever experience, either.  It's more common in couples who have been together for years than in newlyweds, more common in older people than younger, but it's not vanishingly rare.

The protection can be there without sex. But when having sex with someone else, you can easily break this powerful protection that is so hard to come by. So bad cards for true love couples who prefer swinger club activities, lol.

Yes.  Absolutely yes.

In the Dresdenverse, there is no such thing as casual sex.  It always transfers some soul-energy, some magical essence, along with genetic fluids.  Even the most 'slam bam thank you ma'am' encounter does that.  It may not always matter very much, but it most certainly can.

Harry's hesitation about casual sexual encounters saved his life in White Night, because he was still shielded by Susan even after four years.

[LordDresden2]

I agree, I suppose this is true love.
But what I meant to say: there is no evidence in the books that for example Michael and Charity are protected. I mean they are already under protection of the angels.
Did Thomas ever go into their house? I can't remember. Did Thomas ever touch either of them? Maybe I'll put special emphasis on looking for those moments during my next reread.

Thomas wouldn't prove anything either way.  Neither would Lara.  Madeline would, if she wasn't dead.

Remember what Thomas explained to Harry about how that works back in Turn Coat:  the Hunger demon tries to feed every time there's flesh-to-flesh physical contact between a White Vampire and another human being (including another White Vampire!).  But most WVs, most of the time, can restrain the Hunger so the attempt is stopped.  Thomas' Hunger tries to feed a little from Harry every time they do that knuckle-bump move, for ex.  But it's easy for Thomas to restrain the effect there.

I said Madeline would prove something touching Michael/Charity because as Thomas noted, she had so little self-discipline that she could never restrain her Hunger, she let it try to feed every time she touched someone, so she always triggered any Protection she encountered.  But Madeline is suffering from a case of terminal death.

The burn effect kicks in when the Hunger actually begins to feed.  Thomas gets burned by Justine because his Hunger wants to eat her so bad he can't restrain it with her.  But he could touch Charity or Michael and it would be fine unless for some demented reason he tried to feed, then I'm pretty sure zap.  (Even assuming the angels let things go that far.)  Lara, likewise, could shake hands with Michael or Protected Harry and be fine as long as her Hunger was on the leash.

Remember White Night.  Harry and Lara were actualy making out, so Harry could use the emotional energy to drive a spell.  This had gone on for a couple of minutes, but she only got burned when her Hunger slipped the leash for a moment, then Susan's energy burned Lara's mouth.

It's the energy that burns the WV when they try to feed on it, if it's been 'tainted'.

That's why sex (or according to JB, other theoretical ways) is necessary for the protection.  John and Jane might love each other with the deepest of devotion, fully prepared to die for the other if need be, but if there's never been sufficient physical contact to transfer the 'tainted' energy, they aren't protected because that taint isn't there.

It's not about 'fair'.