Does Thomas get a free pass?

[g33k]

Do you have the WOJ on that?  It isn't that I don't doubt you, I just haven't seen it...

... She could rip that thing right out of Thomas. Not that there would be much of Thomas left after she was done. Mab’s not particularly gentle that way. It’s possible that there might be some way to get out of it, maybe, but what fun would that be?

^{https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/}



 

... this reads like two different cases to me. Alfred doing it may seem Mab-ish, but it doesn't follow that it would have the same effect as if Mab had done it..  I keep returning to the image of the soul gaze in Blood Rites, the slight vanilla human fighting and losing the fight to the Hunger Demon ... 

It absolutely is two separate cases.  But AFAIK, the "Mab case" is the only one we know of where Jim has said yes, that power could remove a whampire's hunger demon.

It's just that -- of the two of them -- I'd pick Mab as being more subtle & discriminating, more capable of being subtle and discriminating.  Alfred tends not to do very much, but... when he does what he does it's big & potent and not at all subtle.

I'm not even clear Alfred is capable of noticing any difference between Thomas & his demon.

Stomp on an entity trying to breach the Well's security.
At the Warden's command, commit an entity to the Well.

Filter through the soul of a whampire whose Hunger Demon has been there since birth?  Support said soul, as he performs psychic surgery to separate them?  It just doesn't say "Alfred" to me.


Molly, now... Molly's an apt one to consider.
I could see a screwed-up plot-arc where Molly thinks the Lara/Harry romance deserves being "balanced" with a Thomas/Molly romance; both whampire & wizard.

[Mira]

  Thank you for the quote for starters. 

... She could rip that thing right out of Thomas. Not that there would be much of Thomas left after she was done. Mab’s not particularly gentle that way. It’s possible that there might be some way to get out of it, maybe, but what fun would that be?

To me it says two things, 1] that yes, if it suited her, Mab would rip it right out of Thomas without consideration for him.  Remember when she threatened Harry with making Thomas her Knight?  Consider, would Mab want a White Court Vampire as her Winter Knight given the White Court has it's own agenda?  No, I don't think so.. She also said since he was in love it made him "human" enough for her purpose. 2] Jim said the character would no longer be fun if Thomas became fully human.  I don't see a date on the quote, so I don't know when he said it or what he was planning for Thomas at that time.  However having Thomas locked up on Demonreach isn't much fun either is it?  Jim also says, "there might be a way," so here is a way, let Alfred do it, and a very human Thomas who wants his love and child back might turn out to be a lot of fun indeed at this stage of the series.

It absolutely is two separate cases.  But AFAIK, the "Mab case" is the only one we know of where Jim has said yes, that power could remove a whampire's hunger demon.

Aside from it being possibly burned out by true love before it has made it's first kill.  At this point, this is the only one, but odd don't you think that Jim went to all that elaborate effort to put Thomas in prison on Demonreach reliving his murders and exposed to the "British Prisoner"? 

I'm not even clear Alfred is capable of noticing any difference between Thomas & his demon.

I disagree, I think Merlin gave Alfred more awareness than you think he has, if not, there would have been huge problems during the long time periods when there was no Warden for the island. 

Filter through the soul of a whampire whose Hunger Demon has been there since birth?  Support said soul, as he performs psychic surgery to separate them?  It just doesn't say "Alfred" to me.

However Thomas has already shown his soul to be more human than vampire on several occasions much to the dismay of Lara.  Yes, I think Alfred is very capable of separating the monster from the human..

[g33k]

...  I don't see a date on the quote, so I don't know when he said it or what he was planning for Thomas at that time.

"2011 Naperville Signing" (says the WoJ document, about that quote).
It's a very good point, however, that Jim's ideas may have evolved in the dozen+ years since his off-the-cuff answers at a live event.

... However having Thomas locked up on Demonreach isn't much fun either is it? ...

But it's very very convenient, for the author... maybe he doesn't want to deal with Thomas for a book or three.

[Mira]

"2011 Naperville Signing" (says the WoJ document, about that quote).
It's a very good point, however, that Jim's ideas may have evolved in the dozen+ years since his off-the-cuff answers at a live event.

Thanks for the date! Ghost Story was published in 2011, in that we have the scene where Justine brings home a girlfriend to have sex with so I imagine she and Thomas can have sex. That brings about big changes in the life of Thomas that climax in what happened in Peace Talks and Battle Ground.  So the Thomas Jim was talking about up until that point isn't the same one we see now.

But it's very very convenient, for the author... maybe he doesn't want to deal with Thomas for a book or three.

I think that is a good guess, and I agree, but I also think it bodes for big changes for Thomas.  That's why I think somehow he will become fully human if he survives imprisonment.  Otherwise why bother?  Why go through all of that for Thomas to return basically the same White Court Vampire that is Harry's brother?  I mean if he wanted to that, he could have left him a prisoner of the Elves, getting though a trial, maybe remaining in prison, but without the torment of reliving his crimes that he is undergoing now.  Thomas may even beg to have the demon removed even if it may kill him to do it.  It does set up conflict between Harry and Lara, she won't stand for Thomas remaining in limbo for very long, nor will she be very happy and could very well blame Harry if Thomas rejects his vampire status.  I don't see any other future for Thomas that makes sense if Jim wasn't going to kill him off outright.  I am also not all that excited about conflict between Thomas and Eb, though it will be useful in explaining what Eb's vendetta against vampires is all about.. But why so elaborate?
 

[vincentric]

Lara may be anxious about Thomas, but she won't blame Harry for his condition. She's very practical, does love her family and realizes that not only did Harry not cause this injury to Thomas, but that she forced Harry into considerable danger in saving Thomas' life from the Svartalves and hiding him on the island.

I also think Thomas can remain a vampire and still wield a Sword. We've already seen Susan use one on a mission of love to save her daughter. Thomas can use the same Sword of Love to save the souls of Justine and his child. What happens after that is open. Perhaps prolonged exposure to the Sword will change the nature of his demon. Or maybe he's only a Knight for that mission since we've been told that being a long-term sword wielder is not the normal. Maybe they get rid of Papa Raith and Thomas becomes the new White King and Lara becomes Harry's sidekick.

I'm sure all these guesses are wrong but until Jim tells the story, WAGs are all we've got.

[Mira]

Lara may be anxious about Thomas, but she won't blame Harry for his condition. She's very practical, does love her family and realizes that not only did Harry not cause this injury to Thomas, but that she forced Harry into considerable danger in saving Thomas' life from the Svartalves and hiding him on the island.

 However when Harry did imprison Thomas she flew into a rage and would have killed him if she could if the island's defenses hadn't made that impossible.  We really don't know what she does or doesn't blame Harry for.

I also think Thomas can remain a vampire and still wield a Sword. We've already seen Susan use one on a mission of love to save her daughter. Thomas can use the same Sword of Love to save the souls of Justine and his child. What happens after that is open. Perhaps prolonged exposure to the Sword will change the nature of his demon. Or maybe he's only a Knight for that mission since we've been told that being a long-term sword wielder is not the normal. Maybe they get rid of Papa Raith and Thomas becomes the new White King and Lara becomes Harry's sidekick.

Possible, and has been theorized before, a couple of things are different between Susan and Thomas.  A Red Court Vampire is a totally different creature from a White Court Vampire, weird addictive addiction verses an actual demon parasite that feeds on emotion,  still maybe possible.. However another problem, anything having to do with true love burns the crap out of the demon.  Yeah, I get that Justine having sex with another neutralized the true love thing between her and Thomas, but not between Thomas and the Sword. I think that the Sword of Love itself is true love.  Thus it would be impossible for Thomas to ever touch it, let alone use it... Unless through some sacrifice, he became fully human, then and only then could he become a Holy Knight and wield the Sword of Love. Would giving up his Hunger Demon and the power etc it gives him be seen as a sacrifice?  Perhaps, if there is a way. 

Also even if Thomas became White King, you'd never see Lara be Harry's or anyone else's sidekick.  That just isn't in that woman's make up.

Yup.  WAGS are all we got and what keeps us coming back here time after time to pull these guesses out of our collective informed behinds...

[Tinfoil hat]

Lara may be anxious about Thomas, but she won't blame Harry for his condition. She's very practical, does love her family and realizes that not only did Harry not cause this injury to Thomas, but that she forced Harry into considerable danger in saving Thomas' life from the Svartalves and hiding him on the island.

I also think Thomas can remain a vampire and still wield a Sword. We've already seen Susan use one on a mission of love to save her daughter. Thomas can use the same Sword of Love to save the souls of Justine and his child. What happens after that is open. Perhaps prolonged exposure to the Sword will change the nature of his demon. Or maybe he's only a Knight for that mission since we've been told that being a long-term sword wielder is not the normal. Maybe they get rid of Papa Raith and Thomas becomes the new White King and Lara becomes Harry's sidekick.

I'm sure all these guesses are wrong but until Jim tells the story, WAGs are all we've got.

On a side note, I like the way Jim writes Lara and Harry. Like at the start Lara was like Harry Dresden not so bright wizard i can manipulate. At the end of I think Blood Rites she finds out Harry staged is talk with Pa Raith so she would find out what he really thinks of her. She takes down PaRaith but i think in the back of her mind she realizes that she was used and Harry is smarter that she thinks. In White Night Harry figures out her play. In her mind Dresden is probably some mad genius using confusion fu on her.

[peterwiggin94]

If I remember correctly, Jim has said that the Warden of Demonreach can release portions of the prisoners but not all. The example he gave (assuming my memory is right) is that Harry could trap Vadderrung/Odin/Claus on the island and release Vadderrung but not Claus. Since Claus was the portion of that being who was keeping him immortal, he would have really good leverage on him. I imagine that Harry could, theoretically, do the same with Thomas.
However, we know that there is an angel in the Sword of the Cross. Since those angels presumably has more experience and knowledge than Harry, it could probably be more precise at only killing the Whampire demon. In fact, the Sword of Faith would probably be perfect for this.

[g33k]

  If I remember correctly, Jim has said that the Warden of Demonreach can release portions of the prisoners but not all. The example he gave (assuming my memory is right) is that Harry could trap Vadderrung/Odin/Claus on the island and release Vadderrung but not Claus. Since Claus was the portion of that being who was keeping him immortal, he would have really good leverage on him. I imagine that Harry could, theoretically, do the same with Thomas.

"Claus" is specifically the Kringlemantle, though.  Mantles are constructs, and made to be separated from the people who wield/wear the mantle.  Odin, in particular, often takes off the Kringlemantle (I would allege that he is only rarely Kringle:  because Kringle is subject to Mab, but Vadderung & Odin emphatically are not).

I don't think we've ever seen the Mother/Queen/Lady (or Knight) mantles separate from their owners (except of course when the owners die).  Vadderung has told Harry several times about not always being Kringle; I expect this foreshadows Harry being able to "take off" the Knightmantle, and put it back on.

I don't think that the Hunger Demon is much like a mantle, though.  Obviously, Jim could write that it is, but they seem entirely-separate things, to me.

However, we know that there is an angel in the Sword of the Cross. Since those angels presumably has more experience and knowledge than Harry, it could probably be more precise at only killing the Whampire demon. In fact, the Sword of Faith would probably be perfect for this.

I presume Amoracchius -- the Sword of Love -- would be the most natural for dealing with the whampire hunger-demon of lust.

[Mira]

I don't think that the Hunger Demon is much like a mantle, though.  Obviously, Jim could write that it is, but they seem entirely-separate things, to me.

  The Hunger Demon is nothing like a mantle.  The Hunger Demon is more like a parasite that the host is born with.  When the host reaches puberty or sexual maturity the HD parasite is ready to feed and awakens with the first sexual experience and full maturity when the host feeds on the emotions of the victim until it dies.  It is a symbiotic relationship, it compels the host to feed,thus flourishing it and in return it gives the host, youth, exceptional strength, and beauty.   

"Claus" is specifically the Kringlemantle, though.  Mantles are constructs, and made to be separated from the people who wield/wear the mantle.  Odin, in particular, often takes off the Kringlemantle (I would allege that he is only rarely Kringle:  because Kringle is subject to Mab, but Vadderung & Odin emphatically are not).

I don't think Kringle is subject to anyone, I think Kringle is merely another aspect of Odin's mantle.

I don't think we've ever seen the Mother/Queen/Lady (or Knight) mantles separate from their owners (except of course when the owners die).  Vadderung has told Harry several times about not always being Kringle; I expect this foreshadows Harry being able to "take off" the Knightmantle, and put it back on.

Kringle also told Harry on Halloween during "the Hunt" many mantles/faces maybe worn.  Odin is a god, where as Harry is a mere human, wizard, yes, but human, I don't think he can take the Winter Knight's mantle on and off like a cloak.

[g33k]

... I don't think Kringle is subject to anyone, I think Kringle is merely another aspect of Odin's mantle...

No, he told Harry that he was meeting him (IIRC in Changes) as Kringle specifically because Harry had called as the Winter Knight, that Kringle was part of Winter, and that if Mab had wanted service from Vadderung he'd have told her to make an appointment just like any other customer.

Kringle is subject to Mab.

Mab doesn't usually push the issue because Vadderung -- and Odin! -- are not subject to Mab, and Mab really doesn't want to make an enemy there.
 

[Mira]

No, he told Harry that he was meeting him (IIRC in Changes) as Kringle specifically because Harry had called as the Winter Knight, that Kringle was part of Winter, and that if Mab had wanted service from Vadderung he'd have told her to make an appointment just like any other customer.

You got your books mixed up.  In Changes Harry meets with Vadderung, but in Skin Game as Winter Knight he meets him in Mac's Bar as Kringle.  I also think it is a bit more complicated,  page 372 Skin Game

Vadderung is a complicated guy.
"But you and Kringle are the same person," I said.
"Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied.
"That's just a fiction,"I said, " a little game of protocol."
""Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well.  It can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."

No mention of mantles when it comes to Vadderung/Odin/Kringle, I do find it an interesting passage. Yes, a page or two later Harry mentions that he and Kringle are both members of the Winter Court, but the above passage implies to me at any rate that Kringle is a member of the Winter Court out of curtsy to Mab, not as her subject, nor does he really get along with her, but out of respect.

Kringle is subject to Mab.

Mab doesn't usually push the issue because Vadderung -- and Odin! -- are not subject to Mab, and Mab really doesn't want to make an enemy there.
 

Kringle is subject to Mab legally but he alsoisn't because he is also Odin in the same body, or as Harry put it, " a little game of protocol."  This arrangement apparently keeps the peace.

[g33k]

... Kringle is subject to Mab legally but he alsoisn't because he is also Odin in the same body, or as Harry put it, " a little game of protocol."  This arrangement apparently keeps the peace.

The "legalities" within Faerie are quite absolute.
Legally-outmaneuver a faerie and they will do something they absolutely HATE having to do.

And the Kringlemantle is Fae.
Kringle thus has to obey Mab.
Odin does not have to obey her... Odin seems able to put on & take off the Kringlemantle at will (tricky sort, Odin; just as much so as Mab, really).

[Mira]

The "legalities" within Faerie are quite absolute.
Legally-outmaneuver a faerie and they will do something they absolutely HATE having to do.

And the Kringlemantle is Fae.
Kringle thus has to obey Mab.
Odin does not have to obey her... Odin seems able to put on & take off the Kringlemantle at will (tricky sort, Odin; just as much so as Mab, really).

Notice that Kringle uses the word "protocol"  As defined;

What's the difference between protocol and etiquette?
Is Etiquette the Same as Manners? What about Protocol and ...
While Etiquette & Manners involve the rules of politeness and compassion among people in a social setting, Protocol comprises the set of rules associated with formalities, ceremonial events and official occasions involving nations and their representatives; as well as functions or formal procedures related to ...

Kringle doesn't use the word mantle anywhere when he describes himself.. Nor does he mention putting on or taking off a mantle.. 

Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied

So no, I don't think Kringle is a Fae. Just a guess, but I think under the Accords protocol, Odin as Kringle is a member of the
Winter Court.  He does have to obey certain rules under protocol, but I doubt that Mab under those same protocols can
force Kringle to do anything, nor can Kringle do what he wants.. As Kringle explains...

    "That's just a fiction,"I said, " a little game of protocol."
    ""Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well.  It can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."

[g33k]

Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is:

Is Kringle Fae?
His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.

^{-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page}

Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.