Does Thomas get a free pass?

[forumghost]

Really?  At the end of the day regardless of his motive, he allegedly committed murder.  He hasn't had a trial yet, so his punishment hasn't been set.  Currently he is where he is to keep him alive until he can be put on trial.  And yes, Thomas has numerous victims, as a vampire he did kill.. Lara would call them kine, and Thomas is no different than any other predator, an argument can be made for that.  However they were also people, and his last kill had nothing to do with food to survive.

I know, but I'm just saying that, even if Thomas somehow makes it out of Demonreach in once peace, he'll have spent over a year minimum being psychically tortured by that point.

Like, that's probably more then sufficient for most people.

[Mira]

I know, but I'm just saying that, even if Thomas somehow makes it out of Demonreach in once peace, he'll have spent over a year minimum being psychically tortured by that point.

Like, that's probably more then sufficient for most people.

Is it? Sufficient for people maybe, but for politics of the supernatural?  It may not be.

[g33k]

Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder...

No, it doesn't give you a "free pass."
But we have seen that the Sartalves really, really value their children...

If Thomas could somehow prove that he intentionally "missed" Etri (could have killed him but didn't) in an action of an Outsider-war and in protection of his child... then they might be willing to accept weregild.  Not exactly happy about it, but they could see how they might be driven to similar extremity by a similar threat to their own child(ren).

Maybe...
(I admit it's a stretch).
Maybe Harry could hire Maximillian Valerious to plead the case...?

[Mira]

No, it doesn't give you a "free pass."
But we have seen that the Sartalves really, really value their children...

If Thomas could somehow prove that he intentionally "missed" Etri (could have killed him but didn't) in an action of an Outsider-war and in protection of his child... then they might be willing to accept weregild.  Not exactly happy about it, but they could see how they might be driven to similar extremity by a similar threat to their own child(ren).

Maybe...
(I admit it's a stretch).
Maybe Harry could hire Maximillian Valerious to plead the case...?

Actually I could see him doing that and may be the very reason he was introduced in that short story.  Thomas did commit murder, regardless of his motives for doing it. However his motives might be considered mitigating enough that a great lawyer such as Maximillian Valerious might be able to arrange a plea deal with the Sartalves where time served on Demonreach and a wereguild might be accepted.  However then how much would they demand?  I can see the Raiths being made bankrupt by the amount demanded, setting off a power struggle in the White Court.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I suspect the only way Thomas is forgiven by the Swartalves is if he does something that evens the score, or balances the scales, in their eyes.  That along with an explanation of why Thomas did what he did earlier.  I think Thomas has to do something stunning and unexpected like save Mr. Etri; and probably other members of Etri's family, from certain death.

Assuming Etri and company ever need rescuing, it might be easier for Thomas to do so if he gets an upgrade, like getting to wield Amoracchius.  Sanya took up Esperacchius in part to redeem himself for the things he did when he carried Magog's coin.  So, an example in the Dresdenverse has already been set for Thomas to follow.  And it just so happens the Warden of the very place where Thomas is imprisoned has the means to offer Thomas the sword.  Finally, it would make Thomas into an ally of another Knight who wields a weapon which could probably drive out and possibly harm or even destroy Nemesis without harming Justine or her unborn child.  I don't think Jim would allow Nemesis to be destroyed at this point in the overall story, but driven out of Justine and given a real scare, I could see that being a real possibility.

To me, this idea is such a natural fit that Jim might not want to do it; and I hate to use this phrase because of the negative connotation it can sometimes have, instead Jim might decide to subvert our expectations, or at least my expectation.  According to the page that's labeled "Upcoming Works" Jim is only about half way done writing Twelves Months.  If Thomas gets the upgrade I suggested, I think it would probably occur near the end of that book.  So, we have a while to wait before we find out.

[Mira]

  Possible, what I see though is the island separating the Hunger Demon from the very human Thomas.  I remember the image that Harry saw in his soul gaze of Thomas, his struggle with the Hunger Demon, and the Demon winning.  Also without the Demon, the image that was left was a very weak, very human.. The image was of a ninety pound weakling, not the handsome sexy vampire that is a member of the White Court.  I think Jim put that image there for a reason, and if a vanilla human emerges from the island, it make it very interesting.  Imagine a very human Thomas having to deal with being very ordinary.  And who knows?  It may be his happy ending, if he and Harry find Justine and she is no longer possessed by a Walker.  She has had her baby who isn't possessed by the Hunger Demon because Thomas really isn't it's father.  So they become an ordinary vanilla loving family, what ending could be happier?

[g33k]

... Possible, what I see though is the island separating the Hunger Demon from the very human Thomas ...

I have seen this theory before.
I am extremely dubious about it.

I think Jim has written some of these Big Deal^(tm) artifacts -- like the Island / the well -- as much more "Big Guns," and not really capable, not really relevant, to such a fine discrimination as filtering a Whampire Hunger Demon out of a human being.  I doubt Alfred would even comprehend the request.

That being said... the dominant Whampire form seems to be Lust, with relatively few feeding from despair or fear.  And these Lust demons are profoundly-subject to Love; someone in Love burns them on-contact, and if a proto-Whamp makes love to someone they genuinely love... that burns away the Hunger Demon forever.

And lo, we have Chekhov's Amoracchius, the Sword of Love.

If Thomas is to be de-Whampired, my bet is on Amoracchius to do the job.  Because while an Angel is a "Big Gun," they're also (very much) capable of the sort of "fine discrimination" that I don't see Demonreach achieving.

And then we'd have a modern Elric (Moorcock's tormented, white, sword-wielding / frail-without-sword guy) ... which could be a bit tempting for Jim...  ;-)

[Mira]

I think Jim has written some of these Big Deal(tm) artifacts -- like the Island / the well -- as much more "Big Guns," and not really capable, not really relevant, to such a fine discrimination as filtering a Whampire Hunger Demon out of a human being.  I doubt Alfred would even comprehend the request.

I wouldn't sell Alfred short on that, and I do think the Sword of Love will also have something to do with it.  We will have to see..

[Avernite]

My money's on Lea, she has after all shown the ability to target Red Court parasites without serious harm to the human being parasited. Why not a full removal on a white, as her 'redemption' (and presumably by Harry making a deal, because that would give just enough pain to him during an otherwise significant triumph).

[Mira]

My money's on Lea, she has after all shown the ability to target Red Court parasites without serious harm to the human being parasited. Why not a full removal on a white, as her 'redemption' (and presumably by Harry making a deal, because that would give just enough pain to him during an otherwise significant triumph).

  The problem with that is Red Court vampires were different than White Court vampires, only thing in common was both are a form of vampire.  Dogs and cats are both mammals, but they are very different animals, some things in common but they cannot be treated the same way.  So it doesn't necessarily follow that just because Lea could deal with a Red Court Vamp that she could do the same with a White Court Vamp.

[g33k]

I wouldn't sell Alfred short on that ...

Alfred consistently shows a very stolid presence, and he often doesn't "get" some things Harry says to him.  He -- it, really -- has tremendous amount of power, but specifically only grasps things & applies the power to what's in his own domain.

Imprisoning Thomas is clearly within the scope of that.

Finely sorting through the elements of Thomas' soul, disentangling the Hunger Demon (that was inborn, part of him from birth) is a much-more delicate sort of thing, and IIRC we've ever seen Alfred show any such abilities.

...  We will have to see..

As we always have to, yes.   
Jim hasn't written it yet (I presume -- maybe Thomas is getting out in Twelve Months, but I'm betting not!  But fwiw that book is at 50% complete, per Jim's "upcoming works" page; I'm also betting on Thomas still being "on ice" in Mirror Mirror).

[g33k]

  The problem with that is Red Court vampires were different than White Court vampires, only thing in common was both are a form of vampire...

I'd phrase that even more strongly:  Rampires & Whampires are entirely-different (and unrelated) sorts of beings.  Whampire children are born to whampire parents; they are a human with a Whamp hunger-demon inside.  Rampires are a parasitic infection, inflicted by other Rampires; the hatching young kills the human.

We call them both "vampires" but that's lumping them together for our own convenience.

[Mira]

Alfred consistently shows a very stolid presence, and he often doesn't "get" some things Harry says to him.  He -- it, really -- has tremendous amount of power, but specifically only grasps things & applies the power to what's in his own domain.

Imprisoning Thomas is clearly within the scope of that.

  Alfred may not understand or always get what Harry says to him, but he understands monsters.  So it may turn out that if Harry orders him to free Thomas, he will do just that, free Thomas.. However the Hunger Demon will remain in prison because it is a monster, an unintended consequence.

[g33k]

  Alfred may not understand or always get what Harry says to him, but he understands monsters.  So it may turn out that if Harry orders him to free Thomas, he will do just that, free Thomas.. However the Hunger Demon will remain in prison because it is a monster, an unintended consequence.

I think Demonreach is more Mab-ish, here.  It might be able to remove the Hunger Demon... but that would almost-certainly destroy Thomas' mind & psyche (WoJ has explicitly addressed Mab doing so).

[Mira]

I think Demonreach is more Mab-ish, here.  It might be able to remove the Hunger Demon... but that would almost-certainly destroy Thomas' mind & psyche (WoJ has explicitly addressed Mab doing so).

Do you have the WOJ on that?  It isn't that I don't doubt you, I just haven't seen it.  Though maybe it is because it is early and I've had only one cup of coffee, but this reads like two different cases to me. Alfred doing it may seem Mab-ish, but it doesn't follow that it would have the same effect as if Mab had done it..  I keep returning to the image of the soul gaze in Blood Rites, the slight vanilla human fighting and losing the fight to the Hunger Demon.  I think motive is important, Mab is ruthless, and if she were to remove the Hunger Demon it would be for her own reasons with a disregard for what it would do to Thomas.  I don't know, after a stretch of confronting his sins on the island, Thomas might need to be separated from the Hunger Demon to remain sane.  Being a vampire may no longer be an option for him.. He has made failed attempts to live as a vanilla human in the past, though possibly solely to please Harry.  But remember when he lived with him he almost starved to death because he didn't feed the Demon, then tried to appease it by nibbling while being a hair dresser.  The Shaggy got a hold of him and did a huge amount of damage to his psyche, then in her efforts to heal him, Lara pushed Thomas back into the being a vampire and being proud of it..