Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry

[g33k]

You've made a good argument, I'll grant you that.  I think it could be right.  I'm not saying I believe it, but I wouldn't rule it out, where I might have before I read this ...

Yes; this is exactly my point:  I'm not saying that I believe it, either; but neither do I rule it out!

I call it the case of Carlos' "Schrödinger's Loyalty" -- it's in a fundamentally unknowable state, with surrounding facts that support either one or the other (or in fact several intermediate states) and we won't actually know until Jim writes us a resolution.

I am pretty sure Jim is deliberately leaving this issue unresolved for the readers.  I don't know if he's undecided, or just playing up the ambiguity for a later "dramatic reveal."

[Dina]

I do not think everyone can so easily deduce Thomas and Harry are brothers unless they see them together and see the way they behave with each other. The White Council in general does not know the details of Margaret time with Raith and vampires do not look their age. They probably do not know much about Lord Raith lovers. I do think Mira may be right about Eb though, that he was basically in denial. Because I suspect he knew more about his daughter's life after leaving the Council that the other wizards knew. So he could have made some numbers, see that the dates were right...and that it could explain Harry's friendship with a white vampire.

[g33k]

I do not think everyone can so easily deduce Thomas and Harry are brothers unless they see them together and see the way they behave with each other. The White Council in general does not know the details of Margaret time with Raith and vampires do not look their age. They probably do not know much about Lord Raith lovers. I do think Mira may be right about Eb though, that he was basically in denial. Because I suspect he knew more about his daughter's life after leaving the Council that the other wizards knew. So he could have made some numbers, see that the dates were right...and that it could explain Harry's friendship with a white vampire.

I don't think Eb had a clue.

He was thunderstruck, like it had never occurred to him.

Now, that itself may have been denial:  he certainly knew Margaret was hanging around Lord Raith, and Harry has certainly attracted plenty of suspicion of being "under the influence" (i.e. having sex with) for hanging around with whampires.  So Eb not even considering that issue speaks to some denial!

But specifically Thomas being his grandson... no, I think the surprise was complete; after all, whampire fertility is very very low, and (mortal) mothers who survive even lower (whamp moms, I think, can boost their own survival by increasing their feedings to offset the proto-whamp who feeds on them).  So he wasn't willing to face the idea that his precious baby-Maggie was Doing the Dirty (and doubtless enjoying it very much) with nasty ol' papa-Raith, but even if she had been, he confidently expected no offspring.

[Dina]

It is weird to me the way people who is not in the know behave about Thomas and Harry. Some of them, like most White Council members, act like they do not want to know, as if it was a private issue who Harry wants to have sex with...except in this case the person could, in theory, completely bend Harry's will and mind. Eb, on top of that,  acts like if Harry was having a normal boyfriend that grandpa did not like, even when Harry never gave any sign of liking men and never would feel inclined to get involved with the vampires just for lust. I do not even remember if Eb knows that Harry is aware that Margaret was hiding from the White Court when she died. If he knows, even worse. Why would be Harry willing to have a boyfriend from the vampires that hated his mom? And, if Harry was so desperate for the lust of a wampire, why Thomas and not Lara?
Then other people also act as, yes, well, Harry has a friend, there are rumours, but it is not clear. We think they are just friends. The friend is dangerous, but that is par for the course with Harry. And that is all.

[g33k]

... even when Harry never gave any sign of liking men and never would feel inclined to get involved with the vampires just for lust ... And, if Harry was so desperate for the lust of a wampire, why Thomas and not Lara? ...

I (strongly) suspect that the victims' sexual preference has very little relevance to a strong whampire like Thomas or Lara; they could have almost anyone they want, male or female, gay or straight, regardless of "sexual preference."

Many wizards have enough strength of will to resist... but likely not all of them.  And a whampire that "got the drop" on a wizard, closed-in to grappling/wrestling range, could likely overwhelm many of those who resisted the remote-mojo.

Remember how hard it was for Carlos to resist Lara (he had to invoke a Soulgaze, to see her Demon)... and Lara wasn't even trying (not in earnest) -- she was just testing him a bit.

Now imagine if she was trying... if she had invoked her Demon to super-speed into grips with him before he could react, when he was already stunned by her presence.

And Carlos is an unusually combat-capable wizard!  Not in the same class as Harry & others we've seen, but way better than most.
 
So from the POV of the average WC observer, Harry hanging out with Thomas -- and then Lara -- looks like a high-probability case of one or both of them having "gotten to" him, one way or another.  Not a certainty, by any means!  But likely.
 

[Dina]

I agree both Thomas and Lara can have anyone they want if they are trying, but I do not think they can have a relationship with them when they act like normal persons, if there is not previous sexual interest. I mean, sure, Harry could have been in Thomas thrall, but then, I think he would not be able to do normal wizard things. And if they really think that Thomas "captured" Harry, then they should have do a research to try to save him, or, at the very least, completely cut their ties with him so Harry cannot tell the whampires any Council secret. That is precisely my point, everybody seems to be disgusted that Harry is with Thomas, but it is half-assed. Like, they should take one of these two positions a) panic that Harry in on a whampire pocket. Try to save him or consider him lost b) shrug and decide that Harry is not in danger and he can choose who to date/have sex/whatever. But they seem to be in a middle ground, which I do not understand well.

[LordDresden2]

I (strongly) suspect that the victims' sexual preference has very little relevance to a strong whampire like Thomas or Lara; they could have almost anyone they want, male or female, gay or straight, regardless of "sexual preference."

I actually wonder about that.  In theory, maybe.  But I wonder if the preferences of the vampire matters in that.  For ex, we're told the reason LR didn't mindrape Thomas (or his dead brothers) into submission is that his own tastes didn't run that way.  I wonder if the whammy doesn't work as well if the vampire is totally uninterested in the target.

Also, there have been hints that the older Wizards can cancel the whammy entirely.  IIRC, there was a scene where Lara was spinning the whammy on Harry and Stacy,  and Harry was struggling to keep his thoughts straight, and then Stacy did something and it all just suddenly stopped.

[LordDresden2]

I didn't read it that way, the way I read it was Harry, who was caught by surprise that she knew or had figured it out.

Page 208 Turn Coat, Luccio admits she knew Harry's mother and he starts to ask questions about her.  Then Luccio says;

Anastasia gave me a rather worn smile. "But she didn't spend all that time in Faerie, did she?"
I looked up at the rear view mirror, back toward Chateau Raith.
"And Thomas is the son of the White King himself."
I didn't answer.
She exhaled heavily. "You look so different from him.  Except perhaps for something in the jaw.  The shape of the eyes."

Granted it could go either way, but when Luccio says that Margaret didn't spend all of her time with the Fae, I think she already knew who Thomas was.  And in truth, if anyone on the Council took the time to think about it, they would have figured it out as well.  If Eb didn't, I think it was because he chose to keep his head in the sand about having a vampire for a grandson.

Yeah, that part you could read either way, but there's an earlier part of the conversation that gives a different twist.  Justine had said something during the conversation back at Chez Raith, and Harry had hoped Stacy hadn't noticed it.  She had, and she brings it up during the ride afterward.  He tells her he can't discuss it with the Captain of the Wardens, but maybe he can with Anastasia.  Then he asks her if she has any living family.  They talk about that for a moment, and Harry mentions growing up as an orphan.

Then Harry adds, his throat tight:

"And if I did find someone, I would do anything necessary to protect him.  Anything.

It's at that point that Stacy puts the final pieces together.

Anastasia looked out the window, letting out a hiss of what sounded like anger.  "Margaret.  You selfish bitch."

When you add that part in, it looks like Stacy knew that Margaret had disappeared off the Wardens' radar, unaccounted for, for five years or so.  She also knew that Margaret had had dealings with Lord Raith.  It was Justine's comment (which may or may not have been Nemesis-related) that give her the clue that led her very sharp mind to put the pieces together and realize that Harry and Thomas are half-brothers.

That whole conversation is actually very important.  It reveals a lot about why the Council does what it does.  Stacy says specifically that the Laws of Magic are 'not about justice', or fairness.  She tells Harry a lot about his mother.

The weird thing about the conversation, though, is that what Stacy says doesn't match what he heard from Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggorth, Lord Raith, Thomas, etc.  All their versions more or less tally, it's Stacy's version that is the odd one out.  Now it could be that Stacy is just leaving out the worst of it to spare Harry's feelings.  But the really weird thing is that Harry's internal monologue doesn't seem to notice the discrepancy. 

[Mira]

That whole conversation is actually very important.  It reveals a lot about why the Council does what it does.  Stacy says specifically that the Laws of Magic are 'not about justice', or fairness.  She tells Harry a lot about his mother.

The weird thing about the conversation, though, is that what Stacy says doesn't match what he heard from Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggorth, Lord Raith, Thomas, etc.  All their versions more or less tally, it's Stacy's version that is the odd one out.  Now it could be that Stacy is just leaving out the worst of it to spare Harry's feelings.  But the really weird thing is that Harry's internal monologue doesn't seem to notice the discrepancy.

Would have to go back and reread the whole chapter again.  One thing that could be a factor is the fact that Anastasia was heavily under the influence of Peabody ink at the time, and was trying to manipulate Harry.  As per Harry's last conversation with Rashid in the infirmary when he was told about the ink, how much under control Anastasia was by Peabody.  Long and the short of it Anastasia was basically following orders to get close to Harry.  At the time when she told Harry about his mother, he had real feelings for her.  People in love don't always have the best judgement, thinking she loved him may have led Harry to trust everything she told him, even if it clashed with what others had told him.

[g33k]

... I mean, sure, Harry could have been in Thomas thrall, but then, I think he would not be able to do normal wizard things ...

I think if the whampire just crushes the wizard's will with overwhelming lust, said wizard likely couldn't muster the focus to flickum his bickus, iykwim.

But a more careful, slower seduction... or giving them some recovery time (while still keeping them on a psychic leash)... wizards treated that way could (I think) still be very capable.

I don't recall which story it was, where Harry discovered just such whampire controls buried in a lawyer's mind, leaving the very-finely-disciplined legal intellect essentially unimpaired.  I presume it would be similar for a wizard, and their mental discipline.

... And if they really think that Thomas "captured" Harry, then they should have do a research to try to save him, or, at the very least, completely cut their ties with him so Harry cannot tell the whampires any Council secret. That is precisely my point, everybody seems to be disgusted that Harry is with Thomas, but it is half-assed. Like, they should take one of these two positions a) panic that Harry in on a whampire pocket. Try to save him or consider him lost b) shrug and decide that Harry is not in danger and he can choose who to date/have sex/whatever. But they seem to be in a middle ground, which I do not understand well.

I find this very well-reasoned & persuasive.  I can only "make excuses" for the White Council here; explain how their motivation could work out to the actions they did.  They clearly didn't do things they "should" do (as you clearly laid out, above).

To begin with, I think the WC is stultifying under centuries of tradition and multiple layers of no-longer-relevant bureaucratic policy.  In particular, much of the supernatural world is roiling and unstable and innovating, in light of the upcoming Starborn Cycle terminus; but the WC hasn't adjusted or adapted.  In particular, they have a tradition of letting every wizard do whatever, independently, and only step in with Warden Action when the wizard goes too far.  So they may be a bit suspicious of Harry being whampire-dominated, but that's his business until/unless it goes towards breaking the Laws of Magic.

That scene in Peace Talks where Ramirez & Co confront Harry about Lara, that's the WC beginning to "take official notice."

There's also, I think, some "we are the White Council" arrogant blindness going on, related to the aforementioned uptick in supernatural action (which the WC hasn't matched, or adapted to).  They don't/can't believe any group would be so self-confident as to attempt such a brazen subversion of a WC wizard and warden.

The WC hasn't noticed -- as an organization -- that many of the other supernatural powers have in fact become much more-active and much more-aggressive, and that they -- the WC -- are beginning to look (to those predators) much like an aging buck:  still impressive, but no longer quite up to the task of protecting the herd... or itself.

[Dina]

I find this very well-reasoned & persuasive.  I can only "make excuses" for the White Council here; explain how their motivation could work out to the actions they did.  They clearly didn't do things they "should" do (as you clearly laid out, above).

Thank you.
And you are probably right about all what you said. I wonder what the supernatural world in general will think about the White Council after the Titan attack. It will be known that they had a good part in the action.

[g33k]

... I wonder what the supernatural world in general will think about the White Council after the Titan attack. It will be known that they had a good part in the action.

Yeah.
The accorded nations all saw the WC fighting -- and fighting very effectively! -- at the Battle of Chicago.  It may give them pause in their various subtle sniping attcks...

[LordDresden2]

To begin with, I think the WC is stultifying under centuries of tradition and multiple layers of no-longer-relevant bureaucratic policy.  In particular, much of the supernatural world is roiling and unstable and innovating, in light of the upcoming Starborn Cycle terminus; but the WC hasn't adjusted or adapted.  In particular, they have a tradition of letting every wizard do whatever, independently, and only step in with Warden Action when the wizard goes too far.  So they may be a bit suspicious of Harry being whampire-dominated, but that's his business until/unless it goes towards breaking the Laws of Magic.

That scene in Peace Talks where Ramirez & Co confront Harry about Lara, that's the WC beginning to "take official notice."

There's also, I think, some "we are the White Council" arrogant blindness going on, related to the aforementioned uptick in supernatural action (which the WC hasn't matched, or adapted to).  They don't/can't believe any group would be so self-confident as to attempt such a brazen subversion of a WC wizard and warden.

The WC hasn't noticed -- as an organization -- that many of the other supernatural powers have in fact become much more-active and much more-aggressive, and that they -- the WC -- are beginning to look (to those predators) much like an aging buck:  still impressive, but no longer quite up to the task of protecting the herd... or itself.

I think that's probably kind of inherent to the nature of the Council.  It's made up of people who live for centuries, and the most influential, powerful, and potent of them are centuries old.  An ingrained conservatism would be expected.

The more so, of course, because nine times out of then, they would be right.  It's probably normal for the Council that the youngish Wizards and Witches, say anyone in their first lifetime-span (by which I mean someone from membership to 70 or 80) would likely get excited about this or that Super-Duper-Unprecedented Major Big Deal all the time.  The mature and older Wizards and Witches, though, have seen it all before...and before...and before.  They don't get all that excited about things, and like I said, 9 times out of 10 they'll be right.

(Sort of like the interaction of parents and teenagers, on a grander scale.)

We know that this is the tenth time, that what's going on really is a Big Fat Deal, but it would naturally take time for the older Councilors to recognize that.

OTOH, as JB has said, when the Council takes the gloves off and starts punching for real, people feel it.  They're a major power when they feel motivated, as Kemmler learned and as we've occasionally been seeing.

[LordDresden2]

Would have to go back and reread the whole chapter again.  One thing that could be a factor is the fact that Anastasia was heavily under the influence of Peabody ink at the time, and was trying to manipulate Harry.  As per Harry's last conversation with Rashid in the infirmary when he was told about the ink, how much under control Anastasia was by Peabody.  Long and the short of it Anastasia was basically following orders to get close to Harry.  At the time when she told Harry about his mother, he had real feelings for her.  People in love don't always have the best judgement, thinking she loved him may have led Harry to trust everything she told him, even if it clashed with what others had told him.

The thing is, it's not so much that Harry did or didn't trust her, it's that he didn't appear to even have noticed the discrepancy.  That's the weird part.

[g33k]

I think that's probably kind of inherent to the nature of the Council.  It's made up of people who live for centuries, and the most influential, powerful, and potent of them are centuries old.  An ingrained conservatism would be expected ...

I've got a suspicion it depends on who's the Merlin, and the other Senior Council.
McCoy was advocating for an aggressive/activist stance for years.  If he'd had 2-3 like-minded members on the SC -- and/or someone like that was the Merlin -- then I think the other Supernaturals would be looking at the wizards as much "harder" targets.

I suspect the prior Merlin (the one before Langtry) may have had such an outlook; or maybe Younger Langtry did -- when he first became Merlin -- but the one we see now is older and "wiser" and much more cautious...