Author Topic: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry  (Read 12459 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2024, 04:35:23 AM »
Luccio has known about Thomas since Turn Coat.

Has she?
I hadn't remembered.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2024, 08:16:22 PM »
Has she?
I hadn't remembered.

They talked about it in the car.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2024, 08:47:46 PM »
They talked about it in the car.

Do you have the chapter in Turn Coat where they talk?  Don't doubt you, just want to read for context.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2024, 11:11:58 PM »
Chapter 28, as they are leaving Chateau Raith.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2024, 03:21:48 AM »
Chapter 28, as they are leaving Chateau Raith.

Thanks!  I will go read it.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2024, 04:12:03 AM »
Chapter 28, as they are leaving Chateau Raith.

Ah yes, the infamous conversation where Luccio told Harry a version of his mother quite different from what he had heard from Thomas, Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggoroth, and others...and didn't seem to notice. :lol:

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2024, 04:19:28 AM »
This isn't really relevant to the question of Carlos and where his trust really lies.

He and Harry agreed to a plan where Carlos was to suck up to the Merlin-loyalist mainstream, lean in on the letter-of-the-law enforcement, and generally work his way up the "traditional" ladder of trust inside the White Council... all the while keeping his ears and eyes open for discrepancies and oddities that might reveal "Black Council" agents.

Now, we can't tell:  is he still doing that?
Carlos is acting that way... years later.  Without ever touching base & confirming with Harry that he's still sticking to that plan.  And similarly, he's acting like his trust in Harry is slipping, like he thinks Harry is compromised, maybe no longer trustworthy.

But then, according to their original plan, Harry was supposed to act just the opposite, the White Council member getting impatient with WC restrictions, making dubious alliances and even allying with rivals and enemies of the WC.  Harry has sure been keeping up his end of things!  So of course, "conservative Carlos" has to act like he distrusts Harry.

And we -- the readers -- are stuck wondering if Carlos really has turned against Harry, or if he's just playing his role so well he's fooled Harry, too!

I think the first WC wizard besides Harry himself (and Margaret LaFey) to learn of Thomas' parentage (and being Harry's brother) was when Harry told Ebenezer near the end of PT.

Indeed; I'd argue that this is decent evidence that Carlos is still on Harry's side:  Carlos staged that little melodrama -- showdown on the dark road -- to demonstrate his own "I'm with the Merlin" credentials, face-down the "problem" Harry Dresden, and to let Harry in turn demonstrate his "I'm a loose cannon, with dubious alliances and possibly under the influence of Lara Raith" credentials.

By this analysis, Carlos was sending a message to Harry:  "look how I set up a confrontation where you had to refuse cooperation, full of over-the-top melodrama, let's ham it up for the undoubted post-confrontation debrief and likely observers-in-the-dark."

You've made a good argument, I'll grant you that.  I think it could be right.  I'm not saying I believe it, but I wouldn't rule it out, where I might have before I read this.

I think it might also be partly true.  I think Carlos might be, partly, playing an act with Harry, but at the same time no longer sure about him, either.  So his warnings at the confrontation might be both at once.

One thing Carlos said that could be read either way, or both at once, IIRC, was to advise Harry to stop talking before he said something he 'can't overlook', or words to that effect.  That implies that he doesn't want to take Harry down...but it might also be a warning that Harry is close enough to the line that he can't rule out it coming to that.

There might be multiple meanings in play all at once in Carlos' actions in that scene.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2024, 09:45:17 AM »
Ah yes, the infamous conversation where Luccio told Harry a version of his mother quite different from what he had heard from Thomas, Eb, Nicodemus, Chaunzoggoroth, and others...and didn't seem to notice. :lol:

Thank you!  I actually was going to post something very similar once I reread the chapter.  My question is a bit different in that it was Luccio telling Harry that along with knowing who his mother was, at least she knew that Margaret had lived with Lord Raith and had a kid by him.  I find it hard to believe that other wardens, and at least some of the Senior Council didn't figure out that Harry had a vampire for a half brother.. Or that as Blackstaff, Eb would not be in the know about this.  But then again the White Council seems to be into a lot of willful ignorance, like it is also hard to believe that so few know that Eb is Harry's grandfather.

Offline apgrey

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2024, 01:32:08 PM »
  I think there was a statement by Jim Butcher that collectively the Senior Council members know everything there is to know about Harry Dresden.
  The problem is that they don't share that information with each other.

APG

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2024, 05:26:13 PM »
  I think there was a statement by Jim Butcher that collectively the Senior Council members know everything there is to know about Harry Dresden.
  The problem is that they don't share that information with each other.

APG

Then they know everything, they just don't talk about it.. However from the times he has been called on the carpet before the Senior Council, they have twelve different opinions about what they know.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2024, 05:34:07 PM »
Then they know everything, they just don't talk about it.. However from the times he has been called on the carpet before the Senior Council, they have twelve different opinions about what they know.

No individual knows everything or even most of the things Harry has done. And they do not share information unless asked and event then only grudgingly. So, they tend to form their opinions on incomplete information without context and therefore leap to summary and erroneous conclusions. That old adages about "assumptions" come into play too often here.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2024, 09:06:48 PM »
No individual knows everything or even most of the things Harry has done. And they do not share information unless asked and event then only grudgingly. So, they tend to form their opinions on incomplete information without context and therefore leap to summary and erroneous conclusions. That old adages about "assumptions" come into play too often here.

But it isn't about what Harry has done, it's about who his mother was.  If Luccio knew that she gave birth to Lord Raith's son, and it is common knowledge that Harry is Margaret's son, then logic says she isn't the only one who figured out who Harry's brother is.

Thought just entered my exhausted sweaty head,  someone on the Council is also infested with Nemesis, set up Justine, to entrap Thomas, knowing that Harry and Lara both would move heaven and earth to free him..  The idea being that in the process and aftermath Harry would either violate or come close enough to be booted from the Council, and then be targeted and killed..  Thus getting Nemesis's future star born foe out of the way. 

Offline vincentric

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2024, 11:50:37 PM »
But it isn't about what Harry has done, it's about who his mother was.  If Luccio knew that she gave birth to Lord Raith's son, and it is common knowledge that Harry is Margaret's son, then logic says she isn't the only one who figured out who Harry's brother is.

Thought just entered my exhausted sweaty head,  someone on the Council is also infested with Nemesis, set up Justine, to entrap Thomas, knowing that Harry and Lara both would move heaven and earth to free him..  The idea being that in the process and aftermath Harry would either violate or come close enough to be booted from the Council, and then be targeted and killed..  Thus getting Nemesis's future star born foe out of the way.

Luccio reached her conclusions working from the opposite point of the logic chain. She knew that Margaret was Harry's mother, and that Thomas was Lord Raith's son, but she didn't connect them until Harry revealed that they were brothers. Until that point, she had no idea that Maragret had another child, much less that the child was Lord Wraith's.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2024, 05:39:58 AM »
Thank you!  I actually was going to post something very similar once I reread the chapter.  My question is a bit different in that it was Luccio telling Harry that along with knowing who his mother was, at least she knew that Margaret had lived with Lord Raith and had a kid by him.

That she had hooked up with LR, yes.  But Luccio didn't know that she'd had a child with LR until Harry more or less told her during that conversation.  That caught her by surprise, it caused her to refer to Margaret as a 'selfish bitch' when she found out.  Even Eb didn't know about that.


Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2024, 10:08:21 AM »
That she had hooked up with LR, yes.  But Luccio didn't know that she'd had a child with LR until Harry more or less told her during that conversation.  That caught her by surprise, it caused her to refer to Margaret as a 'selfish bitch' when she found out.  Even Eb didn't know about that.

I didn't read it that way, the way I read it was Harry, who was caught by surprise that she knew or had figured it out.

Page 208 Turn Coat, Luccio admits she knew Harry's mother and he starts to ask questions about her.  Then Luccio says;
Quote
Anastasia gave me a rather worn smile. "But she didn't spend all that time in Faerie, did she?"
I looked up at the rear view mirror, back toward Chateau Raith.
"And Thomas is the son of the White King himself."
I didn't answer.
She exhaled heavily. "You look so different from him.  Except perhaps for something in the jaw.  The shape of the eyes."

Then when they get back to the apartment, Harry asks her; same page
Quote
"Are you going to tell anyone?" I asked quietly.
She looked out the window as she considered the question.  Then she said, "Not unless it is relevant."

Granted it could go either way, but when Luccio says that Margaret didn't spend all of her time with the Fae, I think she already knew who Thomas was.  And in truth, if anyone on the Council took the time to think about it, they would have figured it out as well.  If Eb didn't, I think it was because he chose to keep his head in the sand about having a vampire for a grandson.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2024, 12:16:52 PM by Mira »