Author Topic: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry  (Read 12452 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2024, 05:14:49 PM »
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The Council became antagonistic to Harry when he used a political move to save Molly. Until he got on Langtry's bad side there, Harry was a rising star. He had emerged from the Doom, been promoted to the Wardens and then to the Warden in charge of North America. He wasn't even required to report to any of the three Senior Council members living there.

Yes, but not quite, more politics, remember in Summer Knight there was that faction of the Sr. Council that wanted to have him busted back to apprentice.  They refused to see that Bianca's party in Grave Peril was basically a set up by the Red Court to make trouble.  Harry realized that and wasn't going to go, but was forced to when he lost Michael's Holy Sword, and it was further complicated by Susan forging the invitation so she could go and get a scoop.. Both sides were willing to make him the scapegoat for the start of their war.  Those who were against him, didn't trust him because of who his mother was, they also couldn't believe a boy of his tender years could have knocked off a powerful former Warden like Justin without black magic.. They had voted to condemn instead of placing him under the Doom and they sure as heck didn't believe he deserved to be made a full wizard at 16.  So that faction wasn't hard to convince that Harry deserved to be booted out of the White Council, or put under the sentence of death.   

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2024, 06:48:47 AM »
If you saw one of the most promising talents of the past century who is also a Starborn, walking close to the darkness, would you try a calm and reasoned intercession or would you bully, threaten and ostracize him even though he has not done any dark acts?

But Harry has committed more than a few dark acts.  Usually in the service of a good cause, with his back to the wall, but it still happened.  And a lot of what we know Harry to have done in a good cause could easily look like dark acts from another perspective.

Given the Council's overall attitudes about black magic, and their experience with Kemmler, I suspect the anti-Harry crowd's preference would be 'kill him now, while it's still relatively easy and not too many innocent bystanders get caught up in it'.  My guess is that the 'ostrasize and warn' approach is the result of a compromise between Harry's Council enemies, who want him dead today, and his allies, who aren't sure or still have some faith in him.  I suspect there's a large swath of 'not sure'.

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As Mira said, this is all about politics. Langtry feels threatened by Harry and doesn't like the direction that he thinks Harry would lead or influence the Council toward. He now has the best of both worlds as he sees it. Harry is a Council outcast, and he can still use Harry by exploiting his incapability to refuse to do the right thing.

Probably there's some truth in that.  Langtry would see that as 'being smart', though I suspect that deep down, he'd still prefer Harry dead.  From Langtry's POV, it's better to kill potential warlocks early, before they can do more damage.

Remember how high the stakes are.  Kemmler, for ex, was the single largest cause of World War One.  Between the fighting itself, and the influenza plague it accelerated, and the nasty aftermath all over eastern Europe and Asia and other places, that adds up to (depending on how you count it) tens to hundreds of millions dead.  If you count the USSR as a side-effect of WWI, that adds more millions of victims dead in the gulags and the intentional mass starvations.  Plus he was apparently prevented from Darkhallowing himself to Mab-level by a narrow margin.

I don't agree with Langtry and the Council's actions, but I have no trouble understanding them.  If I didn't have 'inside' information about Harry, I might agree with Langtry.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2024, 03:44:34 PM »
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Given the Council's overall attitudes about black magic, and their experience with Kemmler, I suspect the anti-Harry crowd's preference would be 'kill him now, while it's still relatively easy and not too many innocent bystanders get caught up in it'.  My guess is that the 'ostrasize and warn' approach is the result of a compromise between Harry's Council enemies, who want him dead today, and his allies, who aren't sure or still have some faith in him.  I suspect there's a large swath of 'not sure'.

The time to have done that though was back during the events of Summer Knight. Harry had some powerful members of the Sr Council backing him, but if the Merlin wanted to push it, he may have succeeded.  That attempt failed, in part because I believe they underestimated Harry.  The irony of all of this is Harry has never planned his path, with him it just seem to happen..

Gaining the loyalty of the Wee Folk, thus an army?  Shocking Mab and scaring the hell out of the White Council, planned? No, Harry just repaying them in pizza and freeing many of them held in bondage by the White Court, now he has their loyalty. 

Warden of Demonreach?  We are just beginning to learn what that means... Planned?  Hell no, Harry didn't even have a clue that the place had a Warden,or needed a Warden, why it needed one, or that his little ceremony would make him one, he just wanted to protect Morgan.

Winter Knight?  If he could have avoided that one, he would have, but he had to save his daughter, and in the process wiped out the whole Red Court, something the White Council had failed to do in their war or wars with them.. Point being, Harry now has the Winter Court at his back on top of everything else.

So now the White Council has booted him out of the Council, which is a rather feeble gesture considering the three things I just rattled off, oh yeah, one more thing, with the exception of the Holy Grail, Harry is also now holder of the Artifacts. So short of assassination, if they can convince Eb to murder his grandson, there isn't a heck of a lot they can do. 



Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2024, 03:59:06 PM »
The problem is the White Council has selective memory where Harry is concerned.

No one can deny that many of Harry's exploits look shady from an outside view. But they don't give him credit for the bright ones or the times that he does the right thing when it might have been wiser to step aside.

Yes, he started the war with the Red Court (Though it was more that he gave them a pretext to put their plans in motion.), but he did it to save innocents from slavery and death. He resolved the war between Winter and Summer. He stood with the KotC as the Denarians tried to start anew Black Death. He stopped Kimmler's heirs. He again stood with the KotC to prevent the corruption of the Archive. He uncovered the traitor within the Council. He destroyed the Red Court. He dealt the deciding blow to Ethniu.  These are the things that they know about but give no credit for. Saving the world in Cold Days and being literally on the side of the angels (Multiple casual interactions with Archangel Uriel come to mind.) would be more to his good but they don't know about those beyond what Harry's reported.

The thing is:  it's not the White Council's job to extend trust, to look for more-charitable explanations, to hope for the best.  They do not allow themselves to mind-probe motivations & intentions.

They go by actions and likely intentions.

Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.

Picking one of your examples:

Harry showed up with Sue, heroically rescued a bunch of wardens, and went on to heroically prevent any of the Kemmlerites from finishing the Darkhallow.

But of course EvilHarry(tm) would do exactly that:  EvilHarry wouldn't want any of the other Kemmlerites to become a protogod of death-fueled vengeance.  Note that all the other Kemmlerites were also equally-avid about stoppying anyone (but themselves) from succeeding, just like Harry was!

But  Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster.  You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't).  What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2024, 06:13:35 PM »
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Harry showed up with Sue, heroically rescued a bunch of wardens, and went on to heroically prevent any of the Kemmlerites from finishing the Darkhallow.

Harry did, he rationalized that he wasn't doing anything wrong technically because Sue wasn't human.  Oh, let's not forget that he was aided in doing that by a fallen angel.. But how could they have know that?  Did he even get called on the carpet to be questioned about it? No.. However did the White Council have a better answer for Cowl and Company? They didn't seem to did they.

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But  Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster.  You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't).  What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!

Maybe, but they kept him on as a Warden for some time after that.. In fact wasn't that part of the paperwork that Rashid was going to fill out to get him reinstated in Cold Days?  Can't remember if reinstating his Warden status was part of that or not.. Maybe he lost that when he became Winter Knight...
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Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.

Well, if that's what they really think Harry is, then they blew that one BIG TIME! :o  They are ALL guilty of enabling and aiding one of the most dangerous sorcerers in the modern era and should immediately chop off their own heads, beginning with the Merlin! ::)

Offline vincentric

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2024, 06:56:00 PM »
The thing is:  it's not the White Council's job to extend trust, to look for more-charitable explanations, to hope for the best.  They do not allow themselves to mind-probe motivations & intentions.

They go by actions and likely intentions.

Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.

Picking one of your examples:

Harry showed up with Sue, heroically rescued a bunch of wardens, and went on to heroically prevent any of the Kemmlerites from finishing the Darkhallow.

But of course EvilHarry(tm) would do exactly that:  EvilHarry wouldn't want any of the other Kemmlerites to become a protogod of death-fueled vengeance.  Note that all the other Kemmlerites were also equally-avid about stoppying anyone (but themselves) from succeeding, just like Harry was!

But  Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster.  You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't).  What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!

Then, I'll say that the Council is riddled with villains, even among the highest members, because if they believe that Harry's actions are a likely long-term dark plot then they're basing it off what they would likely do in that situation. Or they're all slipping into paranoia and think every action of any of their members not personally witnessed is an evil trick.

Why spare any kids that have broken any of the seven laws? Harry survived only because self-defense is permitted, and Eb took him under the Doom. Molly because Harry accepted the Doom and used politics on Langtry. Trust was extended.

Why later promote a suspected warlock to the Wardens? And then to Warden commander for North America? That's only the region with the foremost power of the mortal world, the center of the White Court and the frontline vs the Red Court. And Demonreach is located there. Doesn't that show an extension of trust?

Why not move against Harry once he took over Demonreach? If you thought he was going to pull a Kemmler type power play, you left him all the unmonitored time he needed to set it up. For that matter, he could destroy the world at any time by throwing open the prison. Again, they trusted him not to do it.

Why not expel a Warden that didn't toe the line against the Reds? The duly appointed Warden of North America reported the time and location of the Reds' first strike and asked for aid to preempt it. He was ordered to stand down, disobeyed, formed an alliance with a foreign power, ended the threat of the Reds completely with the help the KotC and a black-ops crew of wizards, seemingly dies in the aftermath and resurfaces in the service of that foreign power, immediately goes no contact for a year on Demonreach, pops back up to serve that same foreign power again but is still counted upon as a high level liaison with said power during the most important political event since the creation of the Accords.

When the Ethniu event breaks out, our untrustworthy warden risks his life to save a neighborhood of mortals, alerts his field commander to a Black Court ambush and is instrumental in stopping it, delays a Jotun assault at great personal risk, organizes a small army and strikes the final blow in the decisive battle. But he (technically)violated one of the seven laws during this pitched battle to save the world so he's now over the line and declared a convicted warlock that will be executed if he sneezes wrong. Why suspend the sentence? If he's truly over the line, they should have sent a strike team from Edinborough immediately. He wasn't running or hiding, just sleeping in the home of a retired KotC under a guard of capital A angels. Isn't that how all budding Dark Lords recover?

I don't disagree about keeping a close eye on Harry but he's more than earned a modicum of trust.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 07:15:00 PM by vincentric »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2024, 08:46:14 PM »

The thing is:  it's not the White Council's job to extend trust, to look for more-charitable explanations, to hope for the best.  They do not allow themselves to mind-probe motivations & intentions.

They go by actions and likely intentions.

Their job is to find and stop sorcerors before they do too much damage.

...

But  Harry showed up to that party riding a 66-million-year-old necromantic monster.  You don't get that sort of power in moments (I mean, Harry literally did... but so far as the Council is concerned, you can't... so obviously Harry didn't).  What Harry did -- riding in on Sue -- proved to the council beyond all reasonable doubt that he had been secretly-studying Black Magic (to wit, Necromancy) for many years; in effect, showing that he was likely a disciple of one of Kemmler's disciples, and every bit as dangerous as any of Kemmler's disciples themselves!

Maybe, but they kept him on as a Warden for some time after that.. In fact wasn't that part of the paperwork that Rashid was going to fill out to get him reinstated in Cold Days?  Can't remember if reinstating his Warden status was part of that or not.. Maybe he lost that when he became Winter Knight...
Well, if that's what they really think Harry is, then they blew that one BIG TIME! :o

Harry's opponents on the Council would agree with you there.  That's pretty much exactly what they think.  They think the Council has indulged a dangerous likely warlock for years, let him build up a serious power base, and opened the way to worse things.  They mostly think Harry should have been executed years ago, when it would still have been easy and no bystanders need be harmed.

They would go on to say, though, that 'we are where we are', and for them, the longer the inevitable reckoning is delayed, the more painful it's going to be.  So even if it would have better for most people to kill Harry 20 years ago, or 15, or 10...it'll only keep getting worse as time passes, the cost of the containment operation will keep rising, esp. for innocent bystanders.

Harry's allies take a more sympathetic view, and are more prepared to take a chance on him based on circumstances, but they can't prove their position about Harry.  From the collective Council POV, his enemies could still be right, based on the data.

I'm pretty sure there's also a swath of the Council that is not quite sure about Harry either way.  (I suspect Carlos falls here.)

As a result, the Council position is perpetually muddied, and it has been for years.  The ruling Carlos had to deliver looks pretty much like the result of a massive unsatisfactory compromise between the ones who want him dead yesterday, his allies, with the undecided voting a middle road.  As with many (but not all) compromises, it satisfies no one and infuriates everybody.

Then, I'll say that the Council is riddled with villains, even among the highest members, because if they believe that Harry's actions are a likely long-term dark plot then they're basing it off what they would likely do in that situation.

That's pretty much standard Council procedure, and has been for centuries, for what it's worth.  As Luccio observed back in the day, the Council isn't in the justice business, they're in the 'restraining power' business.

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Why spare any kids that have broken any of the seven laws? Harry survived only because self-defense is permitted, and Eb took him under the Doom. Molly because Harry accepted the Doom and used politics on Langtry. Trust was extended.

And note that in both cases this was the exception, not the rule, and many Council members thought Harry should die at the time.  Ditto Molly.  In both cases, the result was an exception, and Langtry and his faction considered that it was a dangerous mistake in both cases.

Usually, a strongly-suspected warlock gets no second chance.

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Why later promote a suspected warlock to the Wardens?

Because the situation was desperate, Luccio was one of Wizards somewhat sympathetic to Harry, and many people thought Harry being  a Warden was a mistake at the time.

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Why not move against Harry once he took over Demonreach? If you thought he was going to pull a Kemmler type power play, you left him all the unmonitored time he needed to set it up. For that matter, he could destroy the world at any time by throwing open the prison. Again, they trusted him not to do it.

You answer your own question.

Harry's enemies on the Council, I'm sure, wanted to take him down once he became THE Warden.  But they couldn't convince his allies to go along...and now he is the Warden.  So any attempt to take him down risks catastrophe if he threatens to release the monsters.  So even if they're going to go after him, it's no longer simple or easy.

From the POV of Harry's enemies, his becoming Warden isn't a sign of trust, it's a sign that they were Right All Along and time is running out.



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 But he (technically)violated one of the seven laws during this pitched battle to save the world so he's now over the line and declared a convicted warlock that will be executed if he sneezes wrong. Why suspend the sentence?

Because the Council is divided and can't reach agreement.  His enemies want him dead, his allies are his allies (to a point, anyway) and the middle of the road can't decide.  So his enemies got a death sentence and his allies got it suspended.  Compromise in a divided Council.

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2

If he's truly over the line, they should have sent a strike team from Edinborough immediately.

And I have no doubt his hard-line opponents wanted to do just that.  Strike hard and fast, while's he still tired and weak, and maybe you can take him out without him releasing the monsters or using his artifacts or getting help from Winter.  But they couldn't get the rest of the Council to go along.

The Council's actions make perfect sense...when you remember that it's a giant committee, and even the Senior Council has to reach agreement among themselves.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 08:50:02 PM by LordDresden2 »

Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2024, 09:18:22 PM »
Then, I'll say that the Council is riddled with villains, even among the highest members, because if they believe that Harry's actions are a likely long-term dark plot then they're basing it off what they would likely do in that situation ...
I don't think villains.  But a mix of extreme aversion to innovation, and blindness to changing circumstances.  Plus of course the famous (and infamously misattributed):
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
I think the White Council engages in an awful lot of that "doing nothing" part of things!

...
Or they're all slipping into paranoia and think every action ... is an evil trick ...
This too... even moreso.
How long was Wizard Peabody in place?  Subtly increasing peoples' suspicions; subtly increasing their fear.

Even after Peabody's explicit controls were broken, I think he had decades (maybe even a century or so?) to instill habitual thought-patterns; unconscious patterns that would be incredibly hard to break.

So yeah:  paranoia rampant?  Absolutely!

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2024, 12:20:27 PM »
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So yeah:  paranoia rampant?  Absolutely!

On steroids, plus refusal to see that the world has changed.  Fewer still willing to step up and train the next generation of wizards, kids are still showing up with talent but without masters to guide them, experiment and more often than not got down a dark path simply because they don't know better.  With the zero tolerance policy and the lack of interest in real trials for these kids and fewer wizards willing to put their own heads on the line under the Doom to try and redeem them, too many future wizards are losing their heads before they even begun.

This is what Margaret tried to warn them of and ultimately rebelled against.

Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2024, 10:00:06 PM »
Harry did, he rationalized that he wasn't doing anything wrong technically because Sue wasn't human... However did the White Council have a better answer for Cowl and Company? They didn't seem to did they.

Maybe, but they kept him on as a Warden for some time after that...
Politics -- and fear of being murdered by Rampires -- make strange bedfellows.
They needed him.

And maybe there were people arguing "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!" and suggesting the White Council would do better to bring Harry into the wardens, where many other wardens would be routinely interacting with him... all the better to spot warlock-ism's, eh?

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2024, 05:34:42 AM »
Politics -- and fear of being murdered by Rampires -- make strange bedfellows.
They needed him.

And maybe there were people arguing "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!" and suggesting the White Council would do better to bring Harry into the wardens, where many other wardens would be routinely interacting with him... all the better to spot warlock-ism's, eh?

I'm sure Luccio used just that argument with Harry's enemies on the Council.  There's precedent, too.  The Council tends to make people with warlock-ish talents into Wardens so they can watch each other.

IIRC, JB said once that one of the reasons Chandler was a Warden was precisely that he had a knack for time magic.  As a Warden he can use that knack to police the magical world, and at the same time the other Wardens are around him all the time so if he starts to misuse it, he can be detected and dealt with.  JB also pointed out that Molly might well end up as a Warden because of her mind magic talent.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2024, 01:59:10 PM »
I'm sure Luccio used just that argument with Harry's enemies on the Council.  There's precedent, too.  The Council tends to make people with warlock-ish talents into Wardens so they can watch each other.

IIRC, JB said once that one of the reasons Chandler was a Warden was precisely that he had a knack for time magic.  As a Warden he can use that knack to police the magical world, and at the same time the other Wardens are around him all the time so if he starts to misuse it, he can be detected and dealt with.  JB also pointed out that Molly might well end up as a Warden because of her mind magic talent.

That was one of the possibilities that Harry saw in his soul gaze of her, he also saw her as an inhuman monster, and a vanilla human mother..

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2024, 10:28:56 AM »
I'm sure Luccio used just that argument with Harry's enemies on the Council.  There's precedent, too.  The Council tends to make people with warlock-ish talents into Wardens so they can watch each other.

IIRC, JB said once that one of the reasons Chandler was a Warden was precisely that he had a knack for time magic.  As a Warden he can use that knack to police the magical world, and at the same time the other Wardens are around him all the time so if he starts to misuse it, he can be detected and dealt with.  JB also pointed out that Molly might well end up as a Warden because of her mind magic talent.
Making people with warlock tendencies warden actually makes sense in a way.
1) it reminds what would happen to them if they went warlock ie caught and beheaded 2) it shows them the harm abusing their powers would cause. They mostly end up hating warlocks and everything about warlock ensuring they dont become warlocks.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2024, 11:51:30 AM »
Making people with warlock tendencies warden actually makes sense in a way.
1) it reminds what would happen to them if they went warlock ie caught and beheaded 2) it shows them the harm abusing their powers would cause. They mostly end up hating warlocks and everything about warlock ensuring they dont become warlocks.

Or they can do an enormous amount of damage because of their position of power.  Think of a would be warlock warden as a bad cop, and the damage a bad cop does in a community.  The result is a lot of innocents hurt or dead, and major scandal for the White Council. 

Offline vincentric

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2024, 05:04:16 PM »
Making people with warlock tendencies warden actually makes sense in a way.
1) it reminds what would happen to them if they went warlock ie caught and beheaded 2) it shows them the harm abusing their powers would cause. They mostly end up hating warlocks and everything about warlock ensuring they dont become warlocks.

That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another. They have plenty of time to train in methods to avoid detection and recruit followers. Harry sees more major magical action than any other warden besides Morgan and they still think he had the free time to build his plot for world domination.

And yes, I can see that plot:

Get raised as a warlock by Justin, rebel and kill him in "self-defense".
Bob, otherwise known as the Word of Kemmler.
Take advantage of your grandfather's mercy and get trained further. Earn the trust of several Senior Council members.
Work with local law enforcement and organized crime to build contacts.
Form an alliance with the White Court and later the Winter Court.
Help overthrow the power structure of the White Court while forging "relations" with the new leaders.
Stop the heirs of Kemmler. You're not ready to advance your plans and it'll build more favor with the Senior Council.
Go to war with the Red Court with the support of the Council, Winter and the White Court emerging victorious as the new Winter Knight.
Take down the Formor and openly marry the Queen of the White Court.

Out of context it all holds together but it leaves out some things that don't add up to evil incarnate rising:

Stopping the Denarians at multiple points while resisting their efforts to recruit you, including actual coin possession.
Having KotC show up to aid rather than oppose you on multiple occasions and being ally, mentor, houseguest, baby-sitter (Molly) and drinking buddy with each of the KotC that served since you've been a wizard.
Getting Soulfire from an Archangel.
Actually, telling the Council about most of these things openly with the exceptions of Bob, the Coin and Soulfire.

It's easier to just jump to a general conclusion and summary judgement than put in the work of investigating. Just approaching Michael and asking him to address some areas of concern would get most of this. Unless they think Harry has convinced a KotC to lie for him.