Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?

[forumghost]

Agreed.  What changed… for Dumorne to see a need to change his methods?

My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him.

Which meant that Justin (who had hijacked Maggie's Starborn plan for his own ends) needed Harry and Elaine ready early, which meant abandoning traditional brainwashing/conditioning in favour of Magical alternatives.

Unfortunately for him, hhwb was able to turn Justin's anti-outsider wmd against him.

[SerScot]

My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him.

Which meant that Justin (who had hijacked Maggie's Starborn plan for his own ends) needed Harry and Elaine ready early, which meant abandoning traditional brainwashing/conditioning in favour of Magical alternatives.

Unfortunately for him, hhwb was able to turn Justin's anti-outsider wmd against him.

Perhaps.  We’ve been getting this story in fits and starts for 16 books.  I’m looking forward to seeing it told… fulsomely.

[vincentric]

Well, since people want to pile on the Nemfected Elaine bandwagon elsewhere, how about this.

Elaine sent HWWB after Harry. Nemesis was done with getting them trained by Justin and was going to clean house. Harry was too strong willed and Justin was Mab's caretaker so they both had to go. Let the Walker kill Harry and then they both take out Justin while making it seem that they killed each other. then take off with Bob/Evil Bob and have Elaine do a Darkhallow or take over Demonreach or both and end it all.

[g33k]

My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him...

I don't think we know that.
I don't think we know very much at all, really, about Justin DuMorne or the events surrounding Harry's & Elaine's separation from Justin.

It's still possible that Justin was a necromantic-skull-stealing, outsider-summoning, black-hearted villain.

At the opposite extreme, it's also possible he was out of his depth, but still trying to "do the Right Thing."

It is, IMO, most likely that the truth is something more complicated than either (simple) extreme.

[The_Sibelis]

Just tin foil, don't ask lol, but I've begun to consider the mental confusion around the fights, the circumstances, what exactly happened and when... I think Justin was just HWWBH's meat suit in the end. So potentially it wasn't the gas station that banished him(unless the memetic timeline has been told to us wrong) Justin empowered and summoned hwwbh but... He didn't use the cosmic vending machine. He used his own magic to summon an outsider into the world... We don't know when or how many times he actually summoned him, how long he had such an ongoing relationship with him. But he created through magic and choice an outsider knight in the world. I think that changed him on a fundamental level, opening him up to future access. Similar to what happened with Molly, except reversed. He created something by synchrony that left him open to it.
My standard tinfoil theory is Justin was just another variant of Kemmler...(used to be Harry, but i realized..)To go along with my theory of the 7th Dresden and MM, and the usual mirroring of things... Harry learned from Kemmlers Bob how to do necromancy, leads to him learning how to do the body swap thing, leads to the same results.. the 7th version is greater than expected. Took out original Kemmlers, maybe stole a body along the way. And since the council hadn't twigged to two Kemmlers they really are quite sure they killed THAT one, which they intended to.
Why for either theory tho? It's been hinted/theorized at Kemmler might have been trying for a reincarnation.
So HWWBH or Alt Kemmler, both wanted Harry to

(click to show/hide)

train up their 'replacements'

[g33k]

Just tin foil, don't ask lol, but I've begun to consider the mental confusion around the fights, the circumstances, what exactly happened and when... I think Justin was just HWWBH's meat suit in the end. So potentially it wasn't the gas station that banished him(unless the memetic timeline has been told to us wrong) Justin empowered and summoned hwwbh but... He didn't use the cosmic vending machine. He used his own magic to summon an outsider into the world... We don't know when or how many times he actually summoned him, how long he had such an ongoing relationship with him. But he created through magic and choice an outsider knight in the world. I think that changed him on a fundamental level, opening him up to future access. Similar to what happened with Molly, except reversed. He created something by synchrony that left him open to it.
My standard tinfoil theory is Justin was just another variant of Kemmler...(used to be Harry, but i realized..)To go along with my theory of the 7th Dresden and MM, and the usual mirroring of things... Harry learned from Kemmlers Bob how to do necromancy, leads to him learning how to do the body swap thing, leads to the same results.. the 7th version is greater than expected. Took out original Kemmlers, maybe stole a body along the way. And since the council hadn't twigged to two Kemmlers they really are quite sure they killed THAT one, which they intended to.
Why for either theory tho? It's been hinted/theorized at Kemmler might have been trying for a reincarnation.
So HWWBH or Alt Kemmler, both wanted Harry to

(click to show/hide)

train up their 'replacements'

I'm not sure, but I suspect Jim is too savvy a writer to hinge the entire rest of the series (from Mirror Mirror onwards) on a bunch of multiversal twists&turns, on 7 Harrys (Harries?) and alt!Kemmlers, etc etc etc ad infinitum.

I think most of his readership would find it not worth following the complexities.

He's already -- IMO -- on the borderline of "too complex" with 1 multiverse novel + 1 time-travel/retcon/repair-the-Sacred-Timeline novel.
 

[The_Sibelis]

I'm not sure, but I suspect Jim is too savvy a writer to hinge the entire rest of the series (from Mirror Mirror onwards) on a bunch of multiversal twists&turns, on 7 Harrys (Harries?) and alt!Kemmlers, etc etc etc ad infinitum.

I think most of his readership would find it not worth following the complexities.

He's already -- IMO -- on the borderline of "too complex" with 1 multiverse novel + 1 time-travel/retcon/repair-the-Sacred-Timeline novel.

🙄 he already did technically, Demon Reach.
Tho as is usual your misconstruing a simple concept and plot twist that doesn't "govern the rest of the series", that's the greatest thing about the DF, you can enjoy it on many levels. Plus he has the time travel book last? Heh, I disagree. What I said was a tin foil theory to begin with, I literally started with an apologetic don't try because it's nonsensical. To share your doubt immediately after our ahem, history is bad taste. Opinion vs opinion that's enough said for me..
However be aware "I'm not sure" is synonymous with "I don't think". And  when people try to simply unname a theory as viable based on that.. well, the saying goes,",those who say you can't shouldn't interrupt those who already are".
And this has been a point of contention on how people come at each other from it has been the gathering of much heated debate and mod warnings for years.  Because it is not discussion, it does not promote discussion. And it should not exist here. It drives people away as is it's intention and is a perversion of etiquette, designed as such. Quite frankly, I'll go all ten rounds with anyone who disagrees and all day after. Stop trying to bully me, please and thank you 🙏
(Oh and you have no idea what the original theory was, because seven of nobody is running around when bodies are being tossed behind them to escape.. and proper etiquette would be to do as I asked previously and be curious about that)

[g33k]

🙄 he already did technically, Demon Reach.
Tho as is usual your misconstruing a simple concept and plot twist that doesn't "govern the rest of the series", that's the greatest thing about the DF, you can enjoy it on many levels. Plus he has the time travel book last? Heh, I disagree. What I said was a tin foil theory to begin with, I literally started with an apologetic don't try because it's nonsensical. To share your doubt immediately after our ahem, history is bad taste. Opinion vs opinion that's enough said for me..
However be aware "I'm not sure" is synonymous with "I don't think". And  when people try to simply unname a theory as viable based on that.. well, the saying goes,",those who say you can't shouldn't interrupt those who already are".
And this has been a point of contention on how people come at each other from it has been the gathering of much heated debate and mod warnings for years.  Because it is not discussion, it does not promote discussion. And it should not exist here. It drives people away as is it's intention and is a perversion of etiquette, designed as such. Quite frankly, I'll go all ten rounds with anyone who disagrees and all day after. Stop trying to bully me, please and thank you 🙏
(Oh and you have no idea what the original theory was, because seven of nobody is running around when bodies are being tossed behind them to escape.. and proper etiquette would be to do as I asked previously and be curious about that)

With all due respect:  I apologize for whatever degree of "misconstrual" and/or "bullying" you perceive; none was intended.

I likewise find your reply to me filled with "misconstrual" and mis-statements as to what I had said.

I think it best not to engage further.

[The_Sibelis]

With all due respect:  I apologize for whatever degree of "misconstrual" and/or "bullying" you perceive; none was intended.

I likewise find your reply to me filled with "misconstrual" and mis-statements as to what I had said.

I think it best not to engage further.

then you should address them. Misunderstanding only happens under lack of communication after all.

[Mira]

I'll re-introduce my own WAG here... part of which is that Justin isn't (necessarily(*)) the "evil wizard" Harry thinks he is.

He's "old-school" and harsh, for sure... fastball baseballs as shield-training, &c.  But the mover & shaker in this was Mab(**).

  I agree that Justin was old school, but I don't think Mab is the mover and shaker here.  I also agree that there is a lot of missing information and when and if we ever find out what and why of it it will turn out to be a lot more complicated than we think.

1] Yes, Justin old school wizard, former Warden, he was tough on Harry... But was he equally tough on Elaine? We know nothing of his lessons with her.  Why weren't her and Harry taught together? After all defensive skills are the same for male as well as for female wizards as Lea and Mab both complained to Harry that he was too easy on Molly.

[g33k]

... But was he equally tough on Elaine? We know nothing of his lessons with her.  Why weren't her and Harry taught together? ...

I think Harry&Elaine were (largely) being taught together.
They certainly shared a lot of homework assignments!

I'm sure there were some lessons specific to each of them, while the other did bookwork &c.  Their respective strengths and weaknesses differ, after all (not that we know a lot about Elaine's, but we see their preferred methods aren't identical).
 
I presume Elaine got largely-similar treatment to what Harry got; if Justin was notably harder or easier on her, we'd have heard about it by this time:  it's the sort of thing kids remember even into adulthood.

[Mira]

I think Harry&Elaine were (largely) being taught together.
They certainly shared a lot of homework assignments!

I'm sure there were some lessons specific to each of them, while the other did bookwork &c.  Their respective strengths and weaknesses differ, after all (not that we know a lot about Elaine's, but we see their preferred methods aren't identical).
 
I presume Elaine got largely-similar treatment to what Harry got; if Justin was notably harder or easier on her, we'd have heard about it by this time:  it's the sort of thing kids remember even into adulthood.

However at this point, we don't know..  The subjects taught might have been the same so that homework assignments can be worked on together.. However if the slant on that same subject is a bit different, the outcome can be different.  Also we presume it was magical homework they shared, it could have been a math assignment from school.  For some reason Justin attempted to enthrall Elaine first, if she was in fact enthralled. Target of opportunity? As he taught them did he find her more vulnerable?  Here is another thing that really doesn't add up.. Supposedly Elaine stayed home from school that day because she was sick.. Harry cut class to return home to be with her..  Where did Harry think Justin would be during this?  Did Justin have some kind of day job? Was Justin so involved with his magical research that he wouldn't notice that Harry cut school? Did Justin even care if Harry cut school?  Apparently it was no surprise that Harry would cut school, Justin and "enthralled Elaine" were waiting for him with a straight jacket..  The point I am getting at is, Justin counted on Harry cutting class and coming home when he did, and then trapping him.  Would he have attempted it if Harry had not cut class that day? 

[g33k]

...  Also we presume it was magical homework they shared, it could have been a math assignment from school ...

I'm pretty sure it would have been both!   

But IIRC Harry specifically cited some magical homework, where they each did half & then copied one anothers' answers.

... For some reason Justin attempted to enthrall Elaine first, if she was in fact enthralled. Target of opportunity? As he taught them did he find her more vulnerable? ...

"Target of opportunity" works as a viable theory; maybe Justin had been looking for a "natural" opportunity to get one of them alone, and just took the chance he was given.  Maybe he even rushed his own plans a bit, noting a better chance than anything he had seen in a long while.

Honestly, though, I don't think we have enough info to make even mildly-informed guesses, only unsually-Wild WAG's.

... Here is another thing that really doesn't add up.. Supposedly Elaine stayed home from school that day because she was sick.. Harry cut class to return home to be with her..  Where did Harry think Justin would be during this?  Did Justin have some kind of day job? Was Justin so involved with his magical research that he wouldn't notice that Harry cut school? Did Justin even care if Harry cut school?  Apparently it was no surprise that Harry would cut school, Justin and "enthralled Elaine" were waiting for him with a straight jacket..  The point I am getting at is, Justin counted on Harry cutting class and coming home when he did, and then trapping him.  Would he have attempted it if Harry had not cut class that day? 

Cite please?  I recall it as Harry getting home from a normal school-day, not that he had cut class.  But maybe I misremember.

I can't imagine Justin had a "day job," though.  He wouldn't have had a mundane job, and he was intentionally off-radar to the rest of the wizarding world.

Does it matter (why does it matter) whether Justin had been planning for Harry to get home early, or just get home at the regular time?

[Mira]

Cite please?  I recall it as Harry getting home from a normal school-day, not that he had cut class.  But maybe I misremember.

Ghost Story page 267

I never suspected a thing about what he really wanted,until the day Elaine stayed home sick. Concerned about her, I skipped my last class and came home early.  The house seemed too quiet, and an energy I had never sensed before hung in the air like cloying perfume.

Further down on the same page Harry says he now knows that Justin had put a "mental whammy" on Elaine.
Next page more interesting; 

Justin says

"You skipped class again." He sighed. "I should have seen that coming."

This implies that Justin was surprised that Harry came home when he did.. However further down after Justin speaks about needing people he can trust, Harry notices something..

Their expressions gave me nothing. That was when my eyes fell to the coffee table and to the object lying quietly next to my well-mauled copy of The Hobbit.
A straightjacket.

This implies to me at any rate that Justin wasn't really surprised that Harry skipped class.. He was ready for him.

Then on page 269 rereading just now is a really strange sentence;

"Boy!" Justin said, projecting his voice loudly.  I looked over my shoulder at him as I ran.  His eyes were more coldly furious than I had ever seen them. "You are here with me--with Elaine.  Or you are nowhere. If you don't come back right now, you are dead to me"

The "nowhere" in italics are Jim's not mine.  Now it could be that Justin was super confident that Elaine was with him because he had enthralled her... Or it really was a planned act to get Harry from the get go, and him coming home early broke up their plans before they were ready for him.

Does it matter (why does it matter) whether Justin had been planning for Harry to get home early, or just get home at the regular time?

I think it does matter, Harry completely trusted both Elaine and Justin, so under some pretense they may have been able to trick him into the straightjack or otherwise put the mental whammy on him. Harry says he never suspected anything, but by coming home early he walked right into the middle of Justin's application of black magic, though at that moment he didn't know what he was sensing, except that it wasn't good for him.  An hour or two later, especially since at that moment Harry didn't know he was sensing black magic, Harry may not of realized that something was very wrong and that he was in danger.

[The_Sibelis]

The straight jacket was meant to scare him intentionally, only thing that'd make sense. We even have a whole how to do in SK about how Elaine used magic to bind him in spot. What, did the straight jacket get busted up? Other than physical, what exactly was it supposed to stop from a wizard, even a teenager wizard of little skill yet developed?
Whole things rigged on another level I say.