Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

[Mira]

Of course Mab can be wrong. That is what JB said. But that is not lying. If you know what you are saying is not true, you are lying. If you do not know that, you are just wrong. Mab cannot lie but she can be wrong.

 That's where it gets complicated, I think it is more of a point of view, it isn't a black and white issue as the Fae would have you believe.  If you believe you are not lying then it isn't a lie.. But Mab can be wrong, or not telling the truth from the other person's point of view. You have to be constantly aware of that fact when you bargain with the Fae, that's why you usually lose when you do.  I think that is what Eb was trying to warn Harry about, in other words, don't fall for the she cannot tell a lie thing because she could very well be wrong, or just not telling the truth. 

Mab should know by now what the rules governing the free will of mortals are, right? However that doesn't stop her from saying that Harry is hers to shape as she pleases. Don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to say that Mab was simply mistaken?  Or is it more like what Eb said, "trying to lie," to get Harry to go along with her.  Uriel's response is very clear, "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."  You can bring Lasciel into it if you want, but Uriel was responding to what Mab said, and he names Mab.  He doesn't say Mab is wrong about that or mistaken about that, he says, lies.  I wish that Mab had responded directly to Uriel, but she didn't.  I suspect her reply would be that she knows Harry and as long as he believes her, it isn't a lie and she can control him... Twisted, yes, but from her point of view not lying..  Simply because up until the point where Uriel calls her out, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are," Harry believed it.  What Mab had said wasn't accidental, nor is she ignorant of the rules regarding the free will of mortals, however she did try and twist that as much as she could without crossing the line, to get Harry to believe her, and get her way.

[CrusherJen]

Mab did deceive Harry about what the plan was, he and Molly confront her and Marcone.

Did she? I think she complied with the terms of the counter-offer Harry gave her when he became Winter Knight: he'd do what she wanted him to do, as long as he got free will in how it got done. Mab made sure he understood what her intentions were, and that was all she was obligated to do, by Harry's own request.

What is Mab always trying to get Harry to do? She says it directly in my quotation: "think." She wants him to look at every angle of a situation, consider all the possibilities, and be ready to act upon whatever opportunities come up. She's not going to spoon-feed Harry every single detail of her and Marcone's plan-- that would be inconsistent with her character as it's been established in the books. She expects him to figure it out. She said so, right there in the elevator. And Harry's been working with her long enough to know how Mab operates. He knows she's always got intricate plans within plans and counters for any contingencies. So if he needed wanted more information in advance, why didn't he ask for it during the setup phase of the caper?

Mab should know by now what the rules governing the free will of mortals are, right? However that doesn't stop her from saying that Harry is hers to shape as she pleases. Don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to say that Mab was simply mistaken?

No, I don't. I'm satisfied by the Word of Jim that said she was wrong. Mab isn't infallible; she failed to prevent Maeve and Lea from getting Nfected, after all. She can, and does, make mistakes. I also like Dina's take on it:

Still, I keep my interpretation. Mab did not want to change Harry into a popsicle or a monster. She can shape him in a way that pleases her...which is basically allowing Harry be Harry. That pleases her. She is absolutely trying to deceive both Alfred and Harry into believing that she could change Harry into a monster or a bad guy or whatever, but she did not really say that. Uriel intervened because Harry was interpreting those words in the way Mab wanted.

Mab has made it clear more than once that Harry's shaping up to be a useful Knight, despite her annoyance at his occasional acts of disrespect. She's proud of his actions during Battle Ground. She's getting what she needs from him, so she's got no logical reason to interfere with that... and Mab is very, very logical. But she's not going to come out and say that directly, because the fae love their word games, and they expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with those games. Harry's getting better at it... and that pleases her too.

[Mira]

Mab has made it clear more than once that Harry's shaping up to be a useful Knight, despite her annoyance at his occasional acts of disrespect. She's proud of his actions during Battle Ground. She's getting what she needs from him, so she's got no logical reason to interfere with that... and Mab is very, very logical. But she's not going to come out and say that directly, because the fae love their word games, and they expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with those games.

Those events are after the events of Ghost Story when Harry woke up from his coma. It's the events in Changes and Ghost Story that this post is about.  After Uriel wised him up Harry let Mab know on no uncertain terms that he was his own man.  As you say, the Fae expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with their games.  In other words, they can con and scam all they want, in a word, deceive, and if not seen through, then it's on the person trying to bargain with them.

Did she? I think she complied with the terms of the counter-offer Harry gave her when he became Winter Knight: he'd do what she wanted him to do, as long as he got free will in how it got done. Mab made sure he understood what her intentions were, and that was all she was obligated to do, by Harry's own request.

No, she didn't, she and Marcone schemed on their plan for vengeance for some time and said nothing to Harry about it and innocent people got hurt..  Harry and Molly confronted them about it..
Then Mab says page 444 Skin Game

Then Mab finally spoke, her voice sepulchral.  "Do you have a point, my knight?"
"I wanted you to know that I knew," I said. Then I turned to Marcone. "There were people involved in this affair."

Then Harry brings out the diamonds for Marcone to pay as a wereguild. And Marcone asks what happens if he disagrees? Harry then puts Mab in a position where she has to agree or have her name disgraced.
So Marcone agreed as a favor to Mab, Mab didn't really have a choice in the matter and was most displeased.

page 446

Mab was far too contained to give any reaction to the resolution of the situation, beyond a very, very small nod to Marcone.  But she regarded me with a look of displeasure that promised me a reckoning later.  Molly got the same glare."

No, I don't. I'm satisfied by the Word of Jim that said she was wrong. Mab isn't infallible; she failed to prevent Maeve and Lea from getting Nfected, after all. She can, and does, make mistakes. I also like Dina's take on it:

What does the failure of preventing Maeve and Lea from getting infected have to do with her not knowing what the rules regarding free will are?  The weakness in Dina's argument isn't that maybe Mab wanted to change Harry into a better person.. That isn't the point, the point of free will is it is Harry's choice as to how he shapes himself, not Mab's choice for good or ill.. Given what Harry saw of Slate, he was convinced that he didn't want to turn out like him, he was also convinced that Mab wasn't going to give him a choice in the matter, but to turn out like him.

[CrusherJen]

What does the failure of preventing Maeve and Lea from getting infected have to do with her not knowing what the rules regarding free will are?

The point is to prove that Mab can be wrong, and Mab can make mistakes, rather than assuming everything she says is just lie after lie. WOJ itself said she was wrong, she believed what she was saying, she did not lie. If she believed what she said, then she believed her understanding of the rules regarding free will was the truth. Just because she was ignorant of the greater cosmic truth Uriel shared does not make her a liar.

she and Marcone schemed on their plan for vengeance for some time and said nothing to Harry about it and innocent people got hurt.

Yeah, that tends to happen when Denarians who have no value for human life decide to take action. Neither of us can reasonably prove that it would or could have been avoided if Mab had gone against her nature and spoon-fed Harry every infinitesimal detail of their plotting.

The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.

Edit to add: I just had a thought. The anger probably wasn't just that Mab got played, it was also because of the implied damage to Winter's reputation, which is one of Mab's responsibilities to uphold as Queen. I can see her approving the use of fae-style manipulation in other matters, but any threat to Winter is serious business.

Why do some of the best thoughts only come after hitting the Post button? 

[g33k]

... The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.

Also:  let's give some props to Harry's apt pupil Molly, who plays the "I am Winter" card to trump Mab and deliver Christmas Cheer, in the "Christmas Eve / Good People" duology.

[Mira]

The point is to prove that Mab can be wrong, and Mab can make mistakes, rather than assuming everything she says is just lie after lie. WOJ itself said she was wrong, she believed what she was saying, she did not lie. If she believed what she said, then she believed her understanding of the rules regarding free will was the truth. Just because she was ignorant of the greater cosmic truth Uriel shared does not make her a liar.

Nobody is saying she tells lie after lie, a good con-artist doesn't do that.. Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it?  You think she is that stupid?  The answer is no, she isn't, she also sees Harry, a star born powerful wizard as an opportunity.  In other words a powerful weapon for the Winter Court, and we've heard several times now that the reason Harry was born was to be a weapon.. So Mab isn't above twisting those cosmic rules to have her way with Harry.. To do that effectively, you have to know them very well... And Mab does.

Yeah, that tends to happen when Denarians who have no value for human life decide to take action. Neither of us can reasonably prove that it would or could have been avoided if Mab had gone against her nature and spoon-fed Harry every infinitesimal detail of their plotting.

No, then again, they may have had a better chance... Also this wasn't about spoon feeding Harry about their plot, it was about being honest with him that this wasn't about repaying a favor to Nic, it was about vengeance for Marcone. 

The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.

And he and Molly were right about that, not just the lack of information, but the lack of concern for the innocents who died because they happened to get in the way of their plotting.. This was before Marcone took up Namshiel's coin, or it may have it may have gone down differently, but Harry threatened to take Marcone to the mat over it, in his house where Mab, her Lady and her knight were guests which would have broken all kinds of rules and ruined Mab.. So she was forced to go along, she was not a happy camper.

Why do some of the best thoughts only come after hitting the Post button?

That's why there is a "modify post" button... For that and really dumb spelling and grammar errors made either late at night when half asleep or early in the morning half asleep without coffee..

[CrusherJen]

Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it?  You think she is that stupid?  The answer is no, she isn't

No, Mab isn't stupid. But even after a thousand years, I doubt Mab knows everything there is to know about anything, including free will. She pretty much proves this by the way she treats Harry at the start of his tenure as Winter Knight. She demands his unconditional obedience, vastly underestimating his force of will and spirit of defiance. That's not just the wrong way to go with someone like him, it's the worst way to deal with him, and if she was so expert in matters of free will, she should have known that, too-- but she didn't. Even the smartest people can get things wrong, and Mab's no exception to that.

2011 DC signing
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There’s a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we’ll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book.

I think that's pretty clear. And it's our choice whether to believe it or not.

No, then again, they may have had a better chance... Also this wasn't about spoon feeding Harry about their plot, it was about being honest with him that this wasn't about repaying a favor to Nic, it was about vengeance for Marcone.

The books tell us repeatedly that it is not in the nature of the fae to give anything away for free, unless there's a prior bargain or obligation that demands it. So Mab can't just tell Harry everything up front-- that would be going against her nature as a Queen of the fae. It's possible that if Harry had asked more questions, relying on the debt a Queen owes a Knight, he might have found out more... but we didn't see it in the text.

And even if he had asked, and gotten answers, it might not have made any difference to the outcome. Mab and Marcone's planning shaped the battlefield where events took place, but I'm not sure either of them could have fully predicted the Denarians' actions once they got there. Only Nic, Dierdre, and maybe the other hidden coin-wielders knew their whole side of the plan... and they weren't telling. The non-Denarian members of the party were given as little information as possible, on a need-to-know basis-- and Tessa was a wild card trying to upset the whole caper. Harry did the best he could, but it wasn't enough to save everyone. The deaths were the fault of the Denarians' actions, not Mab. I don't think Harry believes otherwise (although he still feels guilt, because he's Harry.) He said what he did to Mab and Marcone to deliberately manipulate them into paying weregild, and it worked. It's a means to an end, not entirely true in itself. Harry's not above a little deception of his own if it's for a worthy cause.

And while I agree that the whole book was far more about revenge on Nic than about merely returning a favor, I don't see it as one thing or the other, either/or. Mab-the-Chessmaster knows how to accomplish multiple things with one action. So both "repaying the debt" and "roaring rampage of revenge" can be true at the same time.

That's why there is a "modify post" button... For that and really dumb spelling and grammar errors made either late at night when half asleep or early in the morning half asleep without coffee.. 

Thank you for understanding!  I try not to rely on edits too much, but I'm glad we have them, for when my brain isn't running fast enough.

[Dina]

Nobody is saying she tells lie after lie, a good con-artist doesn't do that.. Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it?  You think she is that stupid?  The answer is no, she isn't, she also sees Harry, a star born powerful wizard as an opportunity.  In other words a powerful weapon for the Winter Court, and we've heard several times now that the reason Harry was born was to be a weapon.. So Mab isn't above twisting those cosmic rules to have her way with Harry.. To do that effectively, you have to know them very well... And Mab does.

No. Mab cannot twist the cosmic rules. I mean, he cannot choose to twist them. It is why when Harry discovered a fae lying he knew they had been nemfected. It is their own nature that has been changed. Fae absolutely cannot lie. Which makes things very confusing, like when Mab introduces herself with a vanilla name. I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.

[g33k]

... I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.

"Sommerset" = "Summer's End" = Winter

Mab is "Mrs. Winter"

[The_Sibelis]

"Sommerset" = "Summer's End" = Winter

Mab is "Mrs. Winter"

actually, I imagine that's why they pick such oddly obvious names. They cannot lie but they can take an alias based on what they actually are. Or conceivably, a name they literally "took" from a mortal or any other masks they might be able to claim?

[Mira]

No. Mab cannot twist the cosmic rules. I mean, he cannot choose to twist them. It is why when Harry discovered a fae lying he knew they had been nemfected. It is their own nature that has been changed. Fae absolutely cannot lie. Which makes things very confusing, like when Mab introduces herself with a vanilla name. I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.

What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control. Uriel called her on it.  Even more confusing, what he said she said was, "Lies." I think the better argument would be is, why?  To make Harry feel better? Okay, so archangels can lie, because Uriel was lying when he in effect said that Mab was lying...

actually, I imagine that's why they pick such oddly obvious names. They cannot lie but they can take an alias based on what they actually are. Or conceivably, a name they literally "took" from a mortal or any other masks they might be able to claim?

I think a mask is different from taking an alias, Odin for example is Kringle when he is wearing that mask, so it is a valid alias and not a lie.  If Odin claimed to be the Easter Bunny for example it would be different. 

No, Mab isn't stupid. But even after a thousand years, I doubt Mab knows everything there is to know about anything, including free will. She pretty much proves this by the way she treats Harry at the start of his tenure as Winter Knight. She demands his unconditional obedience, vastly underestimating his force of will and spirit of defiance. That's not just the wrong way to go with someone like him, it's the worst way to deal with him, and if she was so expert in matters of free will, she should have known that, too-- but she didn't. Even the smartest people can get things wrong, and Mab's no exception to that.

Or she is trying to do what Eb warned Harry about in Changes.. "Try to lie.."  Trying to lie isn't the same as actually lying is it?  Mab the scammer was able to convince Harry that she could control him and change who he is.. Remember one can deceive without lying. Yes, the smartest people get things wrong, but in this case I doubt that Mab was merely mistaken... Uriel didn't say mistaken, he said, "lies."

I also think that Mab is a very good lawyer, in other words she is very good at finding loopholes..

[Dina]

g33k and Sibelis, yes, that is what I meant. Not lying.
Mira, I absolutely agree about your last line about Mab and loopholes.

And yes, it is really confusing that Uriel says "Lies" and no "wrong", hence this thread is so interesting.

[g33k]

What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control...

She's just wrong about the rules; not "lying" and not "twisting" (bending/modifying) them -- as mentioned, these rules are beyond Mab's ability to bend/modify.  But anybody can be "wrong" about something (q.v. "Flat Earth Society").

But Mab tries to control her Knights... each and every one of them.  She's Mab; she has to.  Because she's freaking Mab, she mostly succeeds.

For the past thousand-ish years Mab's Knights have been "hers to shape," because they have let her get away with that.  Harry is stubborn, though; and Uriel is personally-invested in Harry keeping his free will.

Lloyd Slate was the only WK Harry had ever met, and well-known as a sadistic, murderous monster.  Bob has told Harry that the Mantles exert an inexorable force to shape their bearers, with inevitable results.

So, Harry tells himself the WK-Mantle is a one-way ticket to monsterhood.

When Mab "spoke her truth" to Harry (which wasn't the truth, but also wasn't a lie), it dovetailed 100% with Harry's preconceptions -- and Harry knows "faeries cannot lie."  It could have been the final nail in the coffin of his hopes -- as with WK's before, giving up hope would have inevitably led to Harry eventually succumbing to the various temptations and pressures that Mab always applies.

[vincentric]

What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control. Uriel called her on it.  Even more confusing, what he said she said was, "Lies." I think the better argument would be is, why?  To make Harry feel better? Okay, so archangels can lie, because Uriel was lying when he in effect said that Mab was lying...
I think a mask is different from taking an alias, Odin for example is Kringle when he is wearing that mask, so it is a valid alias and not a lie.  If Odin claimed to be the Easter Bunny for example it would be different.  Or she is trying to do what Eb warned Harry about in Changes.. "Try to lie.."  Trying to lie isn't the same as actually lying is it?  Mab the scammer was able to convince Harry that she could control him and change who he is.. Remember one can deceive without lying. Yes, the smartest people get things wrong, but in this case I doubt that Mab was merely mistaken... Uriel didn't say mistaken, he said, "lies."

I also think that Mab is a very good lawyer, in other words she is very good at finding loopholes..

Yes Mab is trying to be deceptive. She wants a compliant Knight and that was just the start of a campaign to train Harry. He's extremely valuable to her. Mab spent months in that cave on Demonreach to save Harry. She's not going to let that kind of investment run loose.

But Uriel was not speaking to counter Mab. He's not allowed to! His seven words are a direct counter to Lasciel's lie that made Harry lose hope and commit suicide. If Lasciel hadn't spoken to Harry in Changes, and he still came up with the Kincaid plan, Uriel wouldn't have been allowed to speak his seven words. Because he's Uriel, the words he chose also had the best possible effect toward bolstering Harry's resolve against Mab's control. And the Harry they get from it is better for both Mab's and Uriel's purposes.

[Mira]

But Uriel was not speaking to counter Mab. He's not allowed to! His seven words are a direct counter to Lasciel's lie that made Harry lose hope and commit suicide

That's where it gets fuzzy, because perhaps what Lasciel said enabled Uriel to speak the seven words.  But it appears that Uriel had full control as to when to speak them, he chose to speak them after Mab had recovering Harry convinced that he was hers to control...  Again, he says, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are." Lasciel hadn't just spoken the untruths, Mab had. In other words while Lasciel's lies may have opened the door, Uriel had wide discretion for his counter measures as to how and when to use them.  Lasciel's lies didn't happen in a vacuum, and Mab was part of that whether she intended to be or not.   

For the past thousand-ish years Mab's Knights have been "hers to shape," because they have let her get away with that.  Harry is stubborn, though; and Uriel is personally-invested in Harry keeping his free will.

But that's the whole point!  It is exactly what Eb was warning Harry about in Changes!  In Mab's mind because her knights have always let her get away with shaping them.. They are hers to shape. In her mind, not a lie because she has always gotten away with it, so they are hers to shape.. Maybe before Harry, no knight has objected to her shaping them, so in her mind she isn't really lying.  And so she tries to tell them that lie because since they already think it, it isn't a lie..  Harry fell for it, that was a huge reason for the suicide, he saw no way out of it, and part was his state of mind because of Lasciel.  And yes, Uriel has a lot invested in Harry and his free will... So while Mab may believe she isn't lying because all her previous knights let her have her way with them.. It still was untrue, and Harry needed to know that.. Once he understood that it was untrue his whole relationship with Mab changed. While yeah, Uriel could have gone deep into the weeds as we have done as to how the Fae cannot lie but can deceive yadda, yadda, yadda.... Harry was weak,and a bit confused because of his soul walk about.  Mab was trying to take full advantage of that confusion, "he is mine to shape.." Harry was relapsing,still believing it, "damn it."  So Uriel cut to the chase and only needed his seven words to do it... "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."  Harry gleefully counts them as he does it as well, counts them off to Mab, it forms the basis for their relationship going forth.