Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

[Dina]

This is a very interesting thread, and thanks Mira for the original post.
I am more or less in agreement with Vincentric, and with some things other people said, but I thought something else.

Mab says:
"He is mine to shape as I please"

That is important for me. She did not say "I can shape Harry in any thing one can imagine" or "I can shape Harry in anything against his will". She said she could shape him as she pleased. So, if she will never be pleased changing who Harry really truly was, there is no conflict. She can shape Harry in a better version of himself, I guess, but not changing him. For example. He won't stop caring for her humanity, that who he is, but perhaps he learns how to be subtler instead of explosive. The point for me is what Uriel means withe "who you are". I think he means Harry's core, not the details.
And in my opinion, Vin is right, he is telling Harry that what HE was thinking were lies, not Mab's words but Harry's interpretation of them.

[Mira]

This is a very interesting thread, and thanks Mira for the original post.
I am more or less in agreement with Vincentric, and with some things other people said, but I thought something else.

Mab says:
"He is mine to shape as I please"

That is important for me. She did not say "I can shape Harry in any thing one can imagine" or "I can shape Harry in anything against his will". She said she could shape him as she pleased. So, if she will never be pleased changing who Harry really truly was, there is no conflict. She can shape Harry in a better version of himself, I guess, but not changing him. For example. He won't stop caring for her humanity, that who he is, but perhaps he learns how to be subtler instead of explosive. The point for me is what Uriel means withe "who you are". I think he means Harry's core, not the details.
And in my opinion, Vin is right, he is telling Harry that what HE was thinking were lies, not Mab's words but Harry's interpretation of them.

Good to hear from you Dina.  The key word here is, "lies." 

At the end of Changes, Eb, in an attempt to comfort Harry about becoming Winter Knight, and or warn him, wise him up, says pretty much what Uriel said in Ghost Story. The last part of it is the most interesting part and again, goes against what we are told about the Fae.

page 426 Changes

"She might lean on you pretty hard.  Try to put you in a box you don't want to be in.  But don't let her.  She can't take away your will.  Even if she can make it seem that way."  He sighed again, but there was bedrock in his voice. "That's one thing all these dark beings and powers can't do.  Take away you ability to choose. They can kill you.  They can make you do things--but they can't make you choose to do 'em.They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."

What did Mab do? When Harry was at his most vulnerable physically, just waking up from a near fatal coma, not thinking with any clarity at all, Mab takes full advantage!  Yes, she is very aware that Harry is listening, as she tells old Demonreach [agree with g33k, a way for her to claim that she didn't lie to a mortal] that Harry is hers to do with as she pleases, to shape as she pleases.  In effect taking Harry's free will away, not because she actually can, but able to, because Harry believes her. 

Eb warned Harry, that Mab wants him to believe he has no free will. " They almost always try to lie to you
about that. Don't fall for it."  The seven words from Uriel, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."

So yes, Mab did lie..  She is very clever about it though, she is the ultimate con-man.  She is a deceiver, the difference between a liar and a deceiver found in Google;

    Is deception the same from lying?
    Lying differs from deception in two important respects. First, in order to lie, one must make a false statement. Deception does not require that one make a false statement or make any statement at all. True statements can be deceptive and some forms of deception do not involve making statements.

All of which sums up Mab very well, also any snake oil salesman that ever lived. A good scammer
will tell you just the right amount of truth so you will buy the lie that they are selling.  When they get called on it, they blame you for being stupid enough to fall for it. Which is very Mab, how many times has she told Harry that he should have known, or he heard what he wanted to hear, so don't blame her, because the Fae cannot lie.

Mab knows she cannot take Harry's free will, but that doesn't stop her from trying.

Harry should know that Mab cannot take his free will away, but he has also been taught and told over and over again that the Fae cannot lie, and Mab just said he was hers to do with, as she pleased.

He is also weak physically and not thinking clearly.

Mab, the ultimate scammer is ready to take full advantage of the above facts to get Harry to believe he has surrendered his free will to her when he became her knight.. As Eb warned," They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."  

Harry was about to fall for it in his weakened state,he believed, hence his response, "damnit!"

Uriel then stepped in with the seven words, "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."

Harry's eyes are opened to the truth that he always knew or should have known, that Mab cannot take his free will..

The fact remains that Mab in that weak moment tried to con him into believing she could take his free will.  And yes, as Eb warned she would, and Uriel confirmed,she tried to lie about that very thing.

What is more Mab, or I guess since he is writing the story, Jim has most of us readers believing the scam as well.. Most of us, the readers, have totally bought into the idea that the Fae cannot lie. No matter how many times Mab or Lea have moved the goal posts on a bargain, or twisted the facts to make us believe the mortal should have known better.. It's gotta be true, because the Fae cannot lie...

[vincentric]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Mab is not deceptive. She is. She's proud of it. Deception is one of the Fae's favorite pastimes and Mab plays better and harder than anyone.

But how can you post the difference between lying and deception and then insist they are identical? The intent and outcomes may be the same, but they are technically two different acts. Therefore, Mab can be deceptive with every word she speaks, but never tell a lie. Since there is a difference between the two, she can be guilty of one and not the other in a purely legalese sense.

And when the text says, "The Fae cannot tell a direct Lie." It is meant in the most technical and literal sense. No one has ever said, " The Fae cannot deceive you."

Dealing with the Fae is meant to be tricky and dangerous. One should examine any deal with elemental magical creatures for hidden clauses or double meanings and always remember that " There is no spirit of the Law involved, only the Letter."

[Mira]

And when the text says, "The Fae cannot tell a direct Lie." It is meant in the most technical and literal sense. No one has ever said, " The Fae cannot deceive you."

  The text also says, that the Fae can lie or will try to lie to deceive...

Uriel;

"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."

When did Harry hear those words from him?  Right after Mab spoke, Uriel wasn't talking about Lasciel here, he was telling Harry that Mab was lying to him.. Not directly as g33h points out and I agree she is talking to old Demonreach in front of of Harry, so not technically lying to him.. Still what she had just said was a lie, because Mab knows as well as anyone when she said it, that she cannot fundamentally change who Harry is. 

Eb warns Harry in Changes that yes, the Fae will try to lie to get control.. He says that as a 250 plus year old wizard who as he also said has bargained with the Fae in his time...

He says;

    They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."

What is Eb saying here?  The Fae will try and lie to get what they want! 

Also I did point out the difference between deception and lying to someone.. Mab is deceptive as hell, but as both Uriel and Eb point out, she can lie if she needs to and will if it will get her what she wants or needs.. So in the text as you point out the Fae are constantly saying that they cannot lie.. Interesting don't you think it is the Fae saying that, don't remember others saying it.. I don't know, one is also told that it is dangerous to bargain with the Fae, and maybe just maybe when they say they cannot lie, it is time to hold on to your wallet.. 

I'm just pointing out that it is also in the text in two different books stated by two different characters that Mab and the Fae, do or will try to lie to get what they want...

And to quote Eb;

"Don't fall for it."

[CrusherJen]

Considering Eb is also so blinded by rage against White Court vamps that he snubbed one grandson and nearly killed the other one because of it, I wouldn't take anything Eb says without a healthy heaping of salt. He is not an unbiased, objective source for information.

Eb's also not exactly the poster child for "free will," since if he had his way, Harry would abandon his daughter and turn his back on Thomas. He has his own agenda for Harry, which may or may not be linked to White Council politics... and there's a lot we don't know yet about those wizards' intrigues.

Edit to add: Let's not forget, Eb perpetrated one of the biggest lies (by omission) in the whole series-- he neglected to tell Harry they were related... for years. So he isn't above deceptions of his own when he feels it's necessary. "Pot, kettle, all day long."

[Mira]

Considering Eb is also so blinded by rage against White Court vamps that he snubbed one grandson and nearly killed the other one because of it, I wouldn't take anything Eb says without a healthy heaping of salt. He is not an unbiased, objective source for information.

Eb's also not exactly the poster child for "free will," since if he had his way, Harry would abandon his daughter and turn his back on Thomas. He has his own agenda for Harry, which may or may not be linked to White Council politics... and there's a lot we don't know yet about those wizards' intrigues.

Edit to add: Let's not forget, Eb perpetrated one of the biggest lies (by omission) in the whole series-- he neglected to tell Harry they were related... for years. So he isn't above deceptions of his own when he feels it's necessary. "Pot, kettle, all day long."

 As the saying goes, "takes one to know one.." Eb is no angel, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about this, or he is a liar or deliberately lying to Harry.  He told Harry that Mab couldn't mess with his free will, but said it wouldn't stop her from trying.. His warning,  "They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."

Harry did fall for it, that's why he suicided rather than submit to Mab and become her monster.  He was going to fall for it again in the cave when she said he was hers to do with as she pleased.. Which was patently untrue, or a lie... As Uriel points out," Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."

Actually Harry sort of figures out something else a few pages before during the conversation he has with Uriel before he comes back.

page469- 470 Ghost Story;

..."it doesn't make sense."
"Why not?"
"Because it doesn't have anything to do with balancing the scales of the Fallen lying to me," I said.  "You haven't done any fortune cookie whispers into my head, have you?"
"No," he said. "Not yet."
"Well, that's what I mean," I said. "The scale stillisn't balanced.  And I don't think you send people back for kicks."
Uriel regarded me pleasantly.  He said nothing.
"So you did it for a reason.  Something you couldn't have gotten with your seven words."
"Perhaps it was to balance the situation with Molly," he said.
I snorted.  "Yeah.  I bet all the time you go around solving your problems one by one, in neat little rows.  I bet you never, ever try to hit two birds with one stone."

Interesting, we also know from what Mab says when Harry wakes up Uriel had some specific lessons he wanted Harry to learn and was willing to risk it by the soul walk about.  Harry guesses the seven words weren't exactly about balancing the scales with Lasciel, Uriel doesn't argue that point and says maybe to balance with what happened to Molly.. Harry isn't fully buying that one either.. The soul walk about did do a lot for Harry except for one thing, when he woke up from his coma, he still believed that Mab could completely control him, in effect take his free will.  So when she said that he was hers to do with what she wanted, he responded with a,"damnit.." Because he still believed it.. That's when Uriel steps in with those seven words... " Lies, Mab cannot change who you are." Shattering the perception in an instant, Harry gleefully counts them, 1234567!  Then he confronts Mab because he now feels free to..  That was always the purpose of those seven words, Uriel had to also balance the lies that Mab told Harry.

[CrusherJen]

As the saying goes, "takes one to know one.." Eb is no angel, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about this, or he is a liar or deliberately lying to Harry.

But he did lie to Harry, deliberately. He knew Harry was desperately lonely and craving a connection, and he still withheld the knowledge that he was Harry's grandfather, and he let Harry think he had no family for twenty years, if the timeline is accurate. So we know Eb isn't always truthful.

And even if he thinks he's truthful, he can still be wrong... like when he lost control of his power and almost killed Harry in their fight. If Harry hadn't thought ahead and gotten help from one of those "deceptive, untrustworthy, lying fae", he wouldn't be alive after their battle. So no, Eb's not some perfect, unbiased, infallible source of all knowledge of the Dresden Files world, and I don't believe we should take him as one. I think there's been more than enough evidence in the books to acknowledge that.

As for the rest of it... yes, Uriel's words are a many-birds-one-stone solution, but the root of the situation is still Lasciel reinforcing Harry's fears and doubts with her seven words, solidifying them into "facts" in his mind. IMHO, those are the lies Uriel is countering. Consider Archimedes' words: "Give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough, and I will move the world." Mab's claim that she could change Harry, which she fully believed was true, was the place to stand, the lever was Harry's considerable willpower, and thus Lasciel's lies were uprooted and destroyed.

[g33k]

...Eb warns Harry in Changes that yes, the Fae will try to lie to get control
...
What is Eb saying here?  The Fae will try and lie to get what they want! ...

No; Eb is speaking in general terms about:

... these dark beings and powers ...

Not specifically about the Fae.  And he is speaking casually, imprecisely, to include both "lying" and "deceiving."
He's trying to communicate with Harry, trying to convince Harry that a deal (with Mab) isn't giving in to monster-hood.

And it is absolutely correct that most of them (including the fae!) will try to "psych you out" and make you think you have no choice, when you do.

[The_Sibelis]

There is a literal woj on this. Mab didn't lie, because she believed it to be true when she said it. Through empirical evidence of what, 800+ years as Mab her knight is hers to shape as she pleases? She CAN'T lie. She can think things are true that are not. Not so subtle difference. Lying is an intention, a choice she cannot make

[Mira]

There is a literal woj on this. Mab didn't lie, because she believed it to be true when she said it. Through empirical evidence of what, 800+ years as Mab her knight is hers to shape as she pleases? She CAN'T lie. She can think things are true that are not. Not so subtle difference. Lying is an intention, a choice she cannot make

  Then why did Uriel say it was lies?  Can you find the WOJ on this exactly?  I am curious as to just what he says.  What is the evidence that Mab's Knight is hers to shape as she pleases? That wasn't the case with Slate, she didn't shape him and he ended up betraying her.  Yeah, Maeve chose him, but should that make that much difference?

Also interesting that now it is Eb that is dishonest and maybe even lying to Harry about the Fae trying to lie to him to control him?

No; Eb is speaking in general terms about:
Quote

    ... these dark beings and powers ...

Not specifically about the Fae.  And he is speaking casually, imprecisely, to include both "lying" and "deceiving."
He's trying to communicate with Harry, trying to convince Harry that a deal (with Mab) isn't giving in to monster-hood.

In answer to that question, who exactly had Harry in their power in that moment? Who had Harry sworn an oath to in order to save his child? Who is called the Queen of Darkness? What were they talking about in the preceding chapter? Bargains with the Fae, Eb admits he has made some himself in the past..  So no, I seriously doubt that Eb was talking in a casual way to Harry about this.. Nothing casual about what Eb said, he was doing his best to reassure Harry..
From Google

Is it lying if you think you're telling the truth?
It is not. A lie is a knowing misstatement of the truth with the intent to deceive. Both states of mind are required. If you genuinely think you are telling the truth, then you are not lying, but you may be a clueless idiot.

Is Mab a clueless idiot?  I think not, I don't believe for one second that she doesn't know she cannot completely shape and control her knight, but it did not stop her from trying did it?  That's why she so pleased with Harry, because he called her on it... If she believed it was the truth that she was saying, she would have turned Harry into a popsicle.

But he did lie to Harry, deliberately. He knew Harry was desperately lonely and craving a connection, and he still withheld the knowledge that he was Harry's grandfather, and he let Harry think he had no family for twenty years, if the timeline is accurate. So we know Eb isn't always truthful.

We don't know why, do we?  So Eb isn't always truthful, but Mab is a deceiver... In Skin Game she neglected to tell Harry what her and Marcone's real plan was. 

[The_Sibelis]

2011 DC signing
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There’s a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we’ll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book

[Dina]

Thanks, the Sibelis.

Still, I keep my interpretation. Mab did not want to change Harry into a popsicle or a monster. She can shape him in a way that pleases her...which is basically allowing Harry be Harry. That pleases her. She is absolutely trying to deceive both Alfred and Harry into believing that she could change Harry into a monster or a bad guy or whatever, but she did not really say that. Uriel intervened because Harry was interpreting those words in the way Mab wanted.

[CrusherJen]

So Eb isn't always truthful, but Mab is a deceiver... In Skin Game she neglected to tell Harry what her and Marcone's real plan was.

Skin Game, hardcover first edtion, page 25:

"Do I seem stupid to you, my Knight?" she asked. "Think."

I eyed her. Mab's voice was perfectly calm. After what I'd said to her, the defiance I'd offered her, I hadn't expected that. She had never been shy about showing her outrage when she felt it had been earned. This perfect poise was... not out of character, precisely, but I had expected a good deal more intensity than she was displaying. My defiance endangered her plans, and that never left her in a good mood.

Unless...

I closed my eyes and ran back through her words in my head.

"Your precise instructions," I said slowly, "were to go with Nicodemus and help him until such time as he completed his objective."

"Indeed," Mab said. "Which he stated was to remove the contents of a vault." She leaned down, took a fistful of my shirt in her hand, and hauled me back to my feet as easily as she might heft a Chihuahua. "I never said what you would do after."

I blinked at that. Several times. "You..." I dropped my voice. "You want me to double-cross him?"

"I expect you to repay my debt by fulfilling my instructions," Mab replied. "After that..." Her smile returned, smug in the shadows. "I expect you to be yourself."

"Whatever Nicodemus has going this time... you want to stop him, too," I breathed.

She tilted her head, very slightly.

"You know he's not going to honor the truce," I said quietly. "He's going to try to take me out somewhere along the line. He's going to betray me."

"Of course," she said. "I expect superior, more creative treachery on your part."

"While still keeping your word and helping him?" I demanded.

Her smile sharpened. "Is it not quite the game?" she asked. "In my younger days, I would have relished such a novel challenge."

"Yeah," I said. "Gee. Thanks."

[Mira]

Skin Game, hardcover first edtion, page 25:

Here is another quote from Skin Game, towards the end page 443;

Mab did deceive Harry about what the plan was, he and Molly confront her and Marcone.

"You could have told me from the beginning," I said.  "But it was never about paying back a favor.  And it wasn't about foiling his scheme. This was full-scale political vengeance."

As a result, people who shouldn't have been hurt were or even died..

The real point is you can say that as long as the person believes he or she is telling the truth it isn't a lie.  Perhaps, but that doesn't make it the truth either does it?  So Mab can say she cannot lie, but at the same time tell a lie...  Mab may believe that Harry is hers to shape as she pleases, think she isn't lying when she says it, but it is still untrue... So Eb says,"don't fall for it,"

[Dina]

Of course Mab can be wrong. That is what JB said. But that is not lying. If you know what you are saying is not true, you are lying. If you do not know that, you are just wrong. Mab cannot lie but she can be wrong.