Fae Rankings

[g33k]

...
I think it's highly likely that both Titania and Mab knew that she was Nemfected by the time of SK but were unable or unwilling to take direct action against her ...

I could see "unable."  If we are to believe Bob, the Ladies are un-killable even to the Queens, except at the right Conjunctions.  Conjunctions can be times (such as All Hallows Eve) or places (such as the Stone Table).  But, even more than this issue, the Fae are circumscribed with all manner of rules and prohibitions; if Aurora wasn't violating any rule that mandated a death-sentence, it's possible that the Queens were unable to kill her because of Faerie rules.

But the theory (that the Queens knew) doesn't really hold together:  your theory posits that the Queens didn't need investigation-work done (just execution).  Harry's pretty badass, but for straight murderization there's better candidates out there (Kincaid, Genoskwa, and I'm sure many as-yet unmet).

[Mira]

But the theory (that the Queens knew) doesn't really hold together:  your theory posits that the Queens didn't need investigation-work done (just execution).  Harry's pretty badass, but for straight murderization there's better candidates out there (Kincaid, Genoskwa, and I'm sure many as-yet unmet).

 Did Mab ask for an investigation to have Maeve executed?  How about when she told Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her so Molly wouldn't get the Queen mantle?  So no, they don't need an investigation..

Interesting passage in Cold Days, we know that Mab had ordered Harry to kill Maeve, but was it really Maeve/Nemesis setting Mab up to be killed so Maeve/Nemesis gets Mab's mantle and runs the Winter Court..  two passes really page 325

"Don't be coy,child," Mother Summer sniffed.  "What my counter part knows, I know. Mab commanded you to slay Maeve..What do you think will happen if you disobey her."
I walked around for a while before I answered,"It depends whether of not Mab's still around when the smoke clears, I guess," I said.  "Id she is ...upset.  I'll wind up like Lloyd Slate.  If she isn't"
"Yes?"
"Maeve assumes Mab's mantle and becomes the new Winter Queen."

Then on 326 it gets a little confusing,

"Quite so," said Mother Summer.  "And if you do heed Mab's command?"
"Maeve's mantle gets passed on to someone else," I said.  "And if. . . the adversary ? Can I say that safely?"
Mother Summer smiled.  "That's why we use that word rather than a name. Sir Knight. Yes."
"If the adversary has taken Mab," I said, "then it gets to choose an agent to take the Winter Lady's mantle.  Two-thirds of the Winter Court will be under its influence.

What I think Harry meant to say was if Mab is killed, Maeve/Nemesis gets to be Queen, and gets to pick someone else who is infected to become Lady... A really very clever plan.

[g33k]

Did Mab ask for an investigation to have Maeve executed?  How about when she told Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her so Molly wouldn't get the Queen mantle?  So no, they don't need an investigation..

It's not a procedural matter, as it is with mortal justice.  The Faerie Courts don't "need an investigation" to make a judgement.

With the order to kill Maeve, Mab already knew of Maeve's Nemfection.  She had done her grieving and raging, and settled to the kill.  But the Winter Knight (or another mortal) had to do the deed, because faerie rules are specific and unrelenting.

Killing Molly was more "advice" than an "order."  Mab's assessment was that Molly was too weak (and/or ignorant) to serve as nuMab, with an Apocalypse incoming.  I'm pretty sure Mab's wrong about Molly being too weak... but she very well may be too ignorant... Mab, after all, has spent a millenium on plotting and planning and gathering info & intel... and that's all in Mab's head, not in the Mantle.  At least if Lea became WQ, there would be a decent body of experience and "ancient wicked faerie" fighting to protect Creation.

But the Summer Knight issue needed investigating.  Aurora knew how to hide the SK-Mantle, even from Titania (and if from SQ-Titania, then certainly from WQ-Mab).  Suspicion was on Mab; if the Queens had known the truth, that wouldn't be so.

[Mira]

It's not a procedural matter, as it is with mortal justice.  The Faerie Courts don't "need an investigation" to make a judgement.

But the theory (that the Queens knew) doesn't really hold together:  your theory posits that the Queens didn't need investigation-work done (just execution).  Harry's pretty badass, but for straight murderization there's better candidates out there (Kincaid, Genoskwa, and I'm sure many as-yet unmet).

There seems to be a contradiction here^ Either the Fae need investigation or they don't.. I disagree about "moral judgement" that is important to them. Because she was accused and the consequences of her not being able to clear herself, Mab needed a first rate investigator..

With the order to kill Maeve, Mab already knew of Maeve's Nemfection.  She had done her grieving and raging, and settled to the kill.  But the Winter Knight (or another mortal) had to do the deed, because faerie rules are specific and unrelenting.

But not as simple as it sounds, as Mother Summer points out.. Harry is her Knight but he uses his own moral judgement, also he had also seen Mab in "treatment" along side of Lea, and saw the Knife in Mab's belt.  Maeve was bat guano crazy before she was infected, and didn't behave too differently after she was infected, who is to say that it wasn't Mab who was really the infected one trying to get rid of her uninfected daughter.

Killing Molly was more "advice" than an "order."  Mab's assessment was that Molly was too weak (and/or ignorant) to serve as nuMab, with an Apocalypse incoming.  I'm pretty sure Mab's wrong about Molly being too weak... but she very well may be too ignorant... Mab, after all, has spent a millenium on plotting and planning and gathering info & intel... and that's all in Mab's head, not in the Mantle.  At least if Lea became WQ, there would be a decent body of experience and "ancient wicked faerie" fighting to protect Creation.

Advice?

But the Summer Knight issue needed investigating.  Aurora knew how to hide the SK-Mantle, even from Titania (and if from SQ-Titania, then certainly from WQ-Mab).  Suspicion was on Mab; if the Queens had known the truth, that wouldn't be so.

Again, not that simple, there was a whole conspiracy and power struggle behind the murder of the Summer Knight.. A simple announcement by the Queens wouldn't have been enough.

[g33k]

There seems to be a contradiction here^ Either the Fae need investigation or they don't.. I disagree about "moral judgement" that is important to them. Because she was accused and the consequences of her not being able to clear herself, Mab needed a first rate investigator.

Couple of points, here:
#1 -- I never said "moral" judgment, but mortal judgement.
Mortals' jurisprudence calls for cops to investigate, lawyers to advocate, judge & jury to render judgement; and even after all that, possible court-appeals, and even extra-judicial stays/clemency/pardons/etc.

The Fae... notsomuch.  Mab shows up in black, her Aspect of Judgement... lives are on the line right now.

#2 -- Context matters.

Humans "need" all the steps, every time.  Even when the facts are clear and the evidence clear & overwhelming.

The fae only need an investigation when the facts aren't clear.

In SK, Mab (Winter) was the "obvious suspect" (context) and nobody was stepping up with facts to the contrary (context).  The fae are not omniscient.  So Mab went to an investigator (and a mortal Emissary, as the Knights are Mortal & the murder & theft occurred in the mortal realm, not Faerie realms.

By CD, Mab had known of Maeve's Nemfection for years; the context of her kill-order was totally different.  Mab didn't need an "investigation," here (she only needed a Winter Knight who was up to doing the job)...  It was Harry himself who felt the need to investigate (and Jim himself, who needs an investigation for Harry to do).

[g33k]

... But not as simple as it sounds ... who is to say that it wasn't Mab who was really the infected one trying to get rid of her uninfected daughter.

But it is just that simple... from Mab's perspective, from the Faerie-Law / Winter-Law perspective.
Mab knew Maeve was incurably-Nemfected, so Maeve had to die.
The end.

Obviously, it wasn't that easy from Harry's perspective!  Maeve cleverly raised the spectre of Mab being the "crazy" one.  Harry needed to figure out what was really going on.

... Maeve was bat guano crazy before she was infected, and didn't behave too differently after she was infected ...

I don't think we know this.

Lea took the Athame in Grave Peril, book 3.  We don't know how soon after that Maeve became Nemfected, but presumably Nemesis made that happen ASAP.

IIRC, we first met Maeve in Summer Knight, book 4.  Mab is already stepping in between Harry & Lea; I presume Lea's Nemfection has Mab's attention (I'm unclear if Mab has figured out that Nemesis is the issue, but I'm inclined to think not).

Maeve's pre-Nemfection resemblance to guano is really entirely unknown.

[Con]

Something to consider (and this part of my own fanfic wag).

The Fae Courts are running their own version of the Cold War. There are rules and boundaries, and if one side moves the other moves; in either conjunction or against.

It gets very tit for tat favors and blood feuds and skirmishes.

Summer couldn't intervene against the Red Court in Proven Guilty because Winter had their armies on the borders, but sending in a team with Harry as owed a favor and they maneuver into doing so.

The Soveit Union and Nato Allies had a pretty standardised set of Espionage rules. No direct attacks on each other, but supplying arms to their adversaries enemies was a frequently used tactic. Those rules were set up in the few decades the Cold War was running.

The Fae Courts have been doing this for a Millenia give or take a century.

I have a headcanon that Mab had to 'gently' guide the Soveit Union in how to make a Cold War, so that neither power blew the world up.

No you can't bomb their embassies, yes you can exchange hostages, no directly fighting each others military, yes you can train geurilla forces against them. etc

It's all very Fae technicalities and lawyering if you think about it.

So back to my rambling point. Mab knew something was up with Summer but was limited in how she could respond within the rules. Harry thinks she was genuinely surprised when he told her it was Aurora on the battlefied.

Meave was within her court so she could technically move against her, but delayed doing so until Maeve started to threaten the Island and she had a suitable weapon in Harry to deal with her.

Titania couldn't or wouldn't get directly involved except to advise Harry on a crucial point about Nemesis.

Either way both parties could only act against each other in mirror actions.

Hell even Mab gets a kick out of Mac saying;
'May your scales always return to balance'

Small Favor; Mab backs Marcone, Titania finally has an excuse to take Harry out.

tit for tat.

Happens in almost every book the Fae appear.

[Mira]

But it is just that simple... from Mab's perspective, from the Faerie-Law / Winter-Law perspective.
Mab knew Maeve was incurably-Nemfected, so Maeve had to die.
The end.

Obviously, it wasn't that easy from Harry's perspective!  Maeve cleverly raised the spectre of Mab being the "crazy" one.  Harry needed to figure out what was really going on.

If Maeve was that obviously crazy and infected, why would Harry even believe the merest hint that it was Mab who was the crazy one?  Because it is more complicated and there are bigger issues at stake, as Mother Summer points out and Mother Winter would if she were able.

I don't think we know this.

We do know she had issues before she was infested, and not just "mommy" issues. If it was so obvious that Maeve was infected why did it take till Small Favor before Mab figured out what happened to her daughter and was so pissed at herself for not seeing it when something other than killing her could have been done?

Lea took the Athame in Grave Peril, book 3.  We don't know how soon after that Maeve became Nemfected, but presumably Nemesis made that happen ASAP.

But we don't know, Mab also had the Knife during that time.. It was not till that scene in the chapel in Small Favor that Mab realized her daughter was infected!  Not only that she was infected, but she, her mother didn't see it!  Is Mab that oblivious to what is going on around her? Or is it that Maeve's behavior was so bad before her infection the difference after was so subtle that it wasn't noticeable until the latter stages.

IIRC, we first met Maeve in Summer Knight, book 4.  Mab is already stepping in between Harry & Lea; I presume Lea's Nemfection has Mab's attention (I'm unclear if Mab has figured out that Nemesis is the issue, but I'm inclined to think not).

Maeve's pre-Nemfection resemblance to guano is really entirely unknown.

Yes, it is, Mab, herself alludes to it after Molly became Lady, how irresponsible Maeve was.. And the scene at Maeve's Court in Chicago's underworld, that wasn't a recent set up, or how she came to pick Slate as the Winter Knight.

I don't think Lea knew she was infected in Summer Knight, she had already surrendered the Knife to Mab and was acting quite sane for the most part, also acknowledging that she had wronged her Queen.  I also believe it was in that book where we see Mab at least once wearing the Knife in her belt.  Think about it, if Nemesis was so obvious in it's symptoms when it first infects, it would quickly be eradicated..

[Mira]

The Fae Courts are running their own version of the Cold War. There are rules and boundaries, and if one side moves the other moves; in either conjunction or against.

Except they are not at war with each other..  Mother Summer explained it to Harry, Mab/Winter is powerful to protect all of us from the Outside.. Titania is just as powerful to keep Mab/Winter in check, to protect us. At the Gates they do work together, Summer supports Winter, the medics are all Summer.

[g33k]

If Maeve was that obviously crazy and infected, why would Harry even believe the merest hint that it was Mab who was the crazy one?

No; you're putting words into my mouth.  It was NOT "that obvious."

Mab had multiple years to observe Maeve -- her words, her actions, her lack of actions -- and determine what had happened.

Harry only has a few brief scenes with her, less than an hour all-told across the years (up until the Birthday Party scene with Sarissa).  It wasn't nearly enough for him to figure out who's "crazy," who's acting Winter-y vs who's acting Nemesis-y (Harry doesn't even have the name "Nemesis" to hang his theories upon, as of the Birthday Party!) .

...We do know she had issues before she was infested, and not just "mommy" issues.

Having "mommy issues" and generally being ... shall we call it "inadequate"? ... at the Winter Lady gig:  this does not qualify either as "bat guano crazy" nor "nemfection."  And all of that was out of Harry's sight (but not Mab's).

Nemfection is good at subtlety, at passing unnoticed.  I expect there were many things that Nemfected!Maeve could slip past Mab as just "that's just Maeve having mommy-issues again" and "Maeve not doing her job, again."  Eventually, of course, Mab did notice that it wasn't just "Maeve being Maeve;" we don't know how long from that initial "notice" until Mab realized Maeve was Nemfected...  It was book 8, Proven Guilty, where we saw Lea the Sidhe-cicle; but Mab never spoke.  I think it isn't until book 10, Small Favor, that we see Rage!Mab speaking through malks, or causing head-trauma with her angry-voice.  But we don't actually know when it was that Mab realized Maeve was Nemfected

[vincentric]

If Maeve was that obviously crazy and infected, why would Harry even believe the merest hint that it was Mab who was the crazy one?





Because Harry still didn't think that it was possible for Maeve to tell a direct lie. He only discovered that at the denouement of CD.

[g33k]

... The Fae Courts are running their own version of the Cold War ...

There's a decent simile, there.
But I don't think it's literal, and the simile breaks down if pushed too far.

The fae are almost completely constrained by their own natures, by their rules.  Toot cannot resist pizza; Mab cannot resist taking vengeance for slights and wrongs done to her.  Both must obey Faerie Law when acting, when speaking.

The real-world "cold war" was an evolving thing, coming almost straight out of the WWII mindset into the ideological communist-vs-capitalist mindset, with the specter of nuclear warfare making both sides very-unwilling to provoke a "hot" war.

The Fae go to war -- hot war -- every year, at the turning of the seasons.
 

[Mira]

Because Harry still didn't think that it was possible for Maeve to tell a direct lie. He only discovered that at the denouement of CD.

Exactly, and that little fact was either unknown to the Mothers, or they didn't reveal it to Harry for their own reasons.  One reason could be that they were testing him,  right out of the gate, when he arrived, either he freed himself or he'd end up in Mother Winter's stew pot.  Of course by the time Maeve was lying to Lilly, was it still Maeve or mostly Nemesis in Maeve's body?

The Fae go to war -- hot war -- every year, at the turning of the seasons.

No, I don't think they do, the only reason there was possible hot war in Summer Knight was because Aurora had upset the balance which affected what happened at the stone table at the turning of the seasons.

No; you're putting words into my mouth.  It was NOT "that obvious."

Mab had multiple years to observe Maeve -- her words, her actions, her lack of actions -- and determine what had happened.

Not putting any words in your mouth.. If something wasn't THAT obvious, it is because her behavior was bat guano normally before she was infected! Easy to ignore the normal, which Mab mostly did until it was too late.  Maeve was the perfect host for Nemesis to deeply infiltrate unnoticed into the Winter Court.

Harry only has a few brief scenes with her, less than an hour all-told across the years (up until the Birthday Party scene with Sarissa).  It wasn't nearly enough for him to figure out who's "crazy," who's acting Winter-y vs who's acting Nemesis-y (Harry doesn't even have the name "Nemesis" to hang his theories upon, as of the Birthday Party!) .

True, but when Maeve is acting like a sadistic nymphomaniac voyeur, it doesn't take long to figure out that something is a bit off with her.. On the other hand Mab is ordering him to execute her daughter, the Winter Lady, without explaining why, would also seem a bit insane, outward appearances to the contrary that she wasn't insane or more than her usual murderous self.

Having "mommy issues" and generally being ... shall we call it "inadequate"? ... at the Winter Lady gig:  this does not qualify either as "bat guano crazy" nor "nemfection."  And all of that was out of Harry's sight (but not Mab's).

Oh it was more than inadequate, as I said, look to Maeve's little court under Chicago.. Out of her own guilt perhaps, Mab chose to ignore and indulge her daughter's "normal" behavior until she realized that Maeve was beginning to undermine her, then she realized that she was infected, too late.

Nemfection is good at subtlety, at passing unnoticed.  I expect there were many things that Nemfected!Maeve could slip past Mab as just "that's just Maeve having mommy-issues again" and "Maeve not doing her job, again."  Eventually, of course, Mab did notice that it wasn't just "Maeve being Maeve;" we don't know how long from that initial "notice" until Mab realized Maeve was Nemfected...  It was book 8, Proven Guilty, where we saw Lea the Sidhe-cicle; but Mab never spoke.  I think it isn't until book 10, Small Favor, that we see Rage!Mab speaking through malks, or causing head-trauma with her angry-voice.  But we don't actually know when it was that Mab realized Maeve was Nemfected

Yes, we do... Small Favor, the chapel, Mab had a real, "Oh Crap!" Moment.. Because that's when she put it all together, Harry asks her about it in Cold Days..
page 503

" A few years back, you got angry.  So angry that when you spoke it made people bleed from the ears.  That was why.  Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve.  And it hurt.  To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
"It was the knife," Mab said.

We have the moment in Small Favor though we are a bit misdirected.  Mab is talking to Harry in the chapel though her malk quite calmly actually, about her and the "Watchman" having a common enemy. Harry mentions "Thorned Namshiel."  That's the moment Mab goes into a rage. page 403 Small Favor

Mab's eyes flashed with sudden fury and frost literallyformed over every surface of the chapel, including my eyelashes.  Mab snarled in her own voice. It sounded hideous--not melodious, because it was as rich and full and musical as it had ever been. But it was filled with such rage, such fury, such pain and such hate that every vowel clawed at my skin, and every consonant felt like someone taking a staple gun to my ears.
"I am Sidhe," she hissed.  "I am Queen of Air and Darkness.  I am Mab." Her chin lifted, her eyes wide and white around the rippling colors of her irises--utterly insane.  "And I repay my debts, mortal, All of them."

It wasn't the mention of old Thorny that set her off, it was the realization that Nemesis had not just infected Lea, possibly her as well, but her daughter and was still making trouble, and she hadn't realized it.

[g33k]

Yes, we do... Small Favor, the chapel, Mab had a real, "Oh Crap!" Moment.. Because that's when she put it all together, Harry asks her about it in Cold Days...
.  Mab is talking to Harry in the chapel though her malk quite calmly actually, about her and the "Watchman" having a common enemy. Harry mentions "Thorned Namshiel."  That's the moment Mab goes into a rage.

No; the malk-voice was the sign of her rage.  She could act calmly (icy control -- it's a Mab thing), but not quite speak calmly.

Mab was already using the malk-voice back at the beginning of Small Favor (in chapter 5).
She was already in an earbleeding rage... she had already realised what had happened to Maeve.

But we don't know how long she had known... she entered book-10 already knowing, and she spoke normally back in Book 4, but that's a loooooooooong stretch of time where she might have realized.

Later, during the scene in the chapel (the last chapter, IIRC)... honestly, I don't think we know what made her self-control slip, made her use her own voice.

Harry mentioned the assault on Arctis Tor, and named Thorned Namshiel.  Mab never confirmed the assault -- nor Thorny -- as causing her rage.

She permitted Harry to assume.  That -- right there -- is classic Faerie misdirection:  not-lying and leaving the mortal believing something that is un-true; thinking Mab herself had confirmed it!

The exchange is so typical of faerie deception, I figure it at far less than 50/50 chances that Thorny was the Fallen at Arctis Tor.

I have a low-key WAG that what slipped Mab's self-control was her Emissary and soon-to-be Knight being so stupid!
 

[Mira]

No; the malk-voice was the sign of her rage.  She could act calmly (icy control -- it's a Mab thing), but not quite speak calmly.

  She wasn't in a rage when she was speaking through her malk, the subject matter had nothing to do with anger.. Her and "The Watcher" had a common enemy, if Harry continued to refuse to become her knight, she'd get Thomas, because being in love as he was, that made him human enough to be her knight.  When she started talking in her own voice that is when all hell broke loose because she lost control...

However in the context of things the above moment while important, it is what happened after that we don't know about.  As in, what did Mab do to try and help Maeve?  Could she do anything to help her?  We know for several months between Changes and Cold Days she was in a cave on Demonreach trying to keep Harry alive.. What happened during that time? Were those the critical months that put Maeve beyond help so her death was the only solution?  If so, will Mab end up holding Harry responsible?

But we don't know how long she had known... she entered book-10 already knowing, and she spoke normally back in Book 4, but that's a loooooooooong stretch of time where she might have realized.

If she had really known, Mab would have done something about it simply because she couldn't afford to have the adversary hanging out in her court.  We have all gone though events where we know something isn't quite right, but we cannot put our finger on it.  Then that "eureka" or "oh shit" moment happens when your brain actually is able to put two and two together and get four.. When it is something you should have known, but didn't, you get really pissed about it, that's what happened to Mab.  Even if she was angry as you say when she was talking through her malk, she wasn't pissed.. When things finally added up in her brain and she got four, she got pissed, things turned to ice and ears bled.

Later, during the scene in the chapel (the last chapter, IIRC)... honestly, I don't think we know what made her self-control slip, made her use her own voice.

We do, because Harry asks her about it in Cold Days, and she answers, "it was the knife."  The knife wasn't the subject of conversation when she spoke through her malk.. However you can hold a conversation on one subject, and be thinking on another at the same time.. We've all had those kinds of conversations where we are talking, suddenly the other person exclaims, "oh shit!" Or it is you who is talking and you realize you had forgotten something or realize something unrelated to the conversation, "oh shit, that's what happened!"

Harry mentioned the assault on Arctis Tor, and named Thorned Namshiel.  Mab never confirmed the assault -- nor Thorny -- as causing her rage.

No, she didn't, because it wasn't.. That isn't to say she wasn't angry about the assault, she was, her and the "the Watcher" had a common enemy.. But that didn't cause her to lose control.

She permitted Harry to assume.  That -- right there -- is classic Faerie misdirection:  not-lying and leaving the mortal believing something that is un-true; thinking Mab herself had confirmed it!

I don't think it was part of her calculation in that moment, and anyway there was no reason for her to direct Harry one way or the other about the attack on Arctis Tor, not during the chapel conversation in Small Favor. She simply lost it when she realized what had happened to her daughter and why.. "it was the knife." She freely admits that to Harry in Cold Days, and as Harry said,

" A few years back, you got angry.  So angry that when you spoke it made people bleed from the ears.  That was why.  Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve.  And it hurt.  To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
"It was the knife," Mab said.

No quibble from Mab, as straight forward an answer as you are going to get from her, "it was the knife."

The exchange is so typical of faerie deception, I figure it at far less than 50/50 chances that Thorny was the Fallen at Arctis Tor.

I have a low-key WAG that what slipped Mab's self-control was her Emissary and soon-to-be Knight being so stupid!

No, if it was about faerie deception, Mab wouldn't have lost control.. If she had thought Harry was being so stupid, she would have told him so.. Oh she was busy trying to move the goal posts a little so she could still claim a favor from Harry, i.e. become her knight, she even suggested Thomas for the job to persuade him, but she didn't lose control..