Who called up the Cornerhounds?

[KurtinStGeorge]

I'm near the end of rereading; well, mostly re-listening to all of the Dresden Files case file books.  On my first read through and then listening to the audio book of Peace Talks, I just assumed that Cowl was around but keeping out of sight.  He makes a good suspect for summoning the cornerhounds and I think there was even a WoJ that came out a few years ago that Cowl is sometimes operating in the background but we just don't see him.  (Yes, I know there were threads on this subject back in the day, I don't think any of them caught what I'm about to mention.)

However, this last time I was struck by what Warden Chandler said to Harry just after Harry left the Raith chateau:
Chandler’s smile didn’t falter. But it took on an aspect of granite, somehow. “No one’s that disingenuous, Dresden. The Winter Lady gets you quarters inside the svartalf embassy. Not long after, a known personal agent of Lara Raith and a frequent ally of your own gets inside, somehow, and attempts to assassinate Etri. Hours later, you visit the assassin’s significant other, then have a meeting with Ms. Raith.”

“Um,” I said. “Sure, I mean, when you put it like that, I see how that might look a little suspicious… ”

I swear, sometimes I just want to hit Harry upside his head.  He either doesn't know how to defend himself from false allegations or he misses an obvious clue.  In this case it may have been both.  By the way I'm not accusing Chandler of anything specific.  He just happened to be the warden who spoke directly to Harry.

Harry should have mentioned that Chandler's description of Harry's day left out his meeting with the two current KotC and one former KotC.  That by itself goes against the narrative that Harry was consorting with nefarious characters all day.  Perhaps even more glaring, Harry could have asked, "If you were following me around, why didn't you help me and Senior Council member McCoy when we were attacked by Outsiders today?  You must have seen that after I visited Justine, I didn't leave immediately.  I was checking for magical trace energy outside of her apartment when McCoy appeared.  We had a brief discussion before a herd of cornerhounds came after us.  It would have been nice if there had been some wardens around to help out."

I'm wondering if all of the wardens followed Harry around or if they did it in shifts.  Actually, it makes sense that Ramirez did the following, he's the one who had the magical ink on his hand that would allow him to follow Harry around.  He could have contacted the other wardens through magical means when he wanted all of them to confront Harry outside the Raith estate.  That makes Warden Ramirez's actions look very sloppy or makes them look very questionable. 

Plus, Ramirez was obviously more than physically injured by what Molly did to him.  There's more going on with Ramirez than what has been openly stated.


   

 

[Mira]

  I agree, something is up with Ramirez, the obvious is he is infested with the Nemesis.. To which
the answer would be, that is too obvious, or can human wizards even be infested with Nemesis? Maybe not, but he has taken a lot of blows of late, both physical and emotional.  This makes him vulnerable to being corrupted, question is, by whom? 

One other thought I had reading your post having recently read "David Copperfield," when I was struck as to how dense and poor judge of people young David was, not unlike Harry.. Yeah, I know Harry was named after the magician, but he also has a lot in common with the original David Copperfield, both were orphaned, both suffered abuse, etc. 

Harry should have mentioned that Chandler's description of Harry's day left out his meeting with the two current KotC and one former KotC.  That by itself goes against the narrative that Harry was consorting with nefarious characters all day.  Perhaps even more glaring, Harry could have asked, "If you were following me around, why didn't you help me and Senior Council member McCoy when we were attacked by Outsiders today?  You must have seen that after I visited Justine, I didn't leave immediately.  I was checking for magical trace energy outside of her apartment when McCoy appeared.  We had a brief discussion before a herd of cornerhounds came after us.  It would have been nice if there had been some wardens around to help out."

Not unlike David Copperfield, Harry was so taken aback that his friends could turn on him, he was unable to defend himself and too honorable to tell them it was Murphy and not Lara that he had sex with earlier in the day.  Nor at that point, in spite of his previous clashes with them can he conceive
that he was being set up by someone on the White Council.  Another scene from the series you might want to bring up is in Proven Guilty when Harry politically out maneuvers Langtree in front of the Senior Council to save Molly.. It is made clear that there that there will be consequences at some point down the line.. I think that is what we are seeing now.

[EBRIEN]

I still think Chandler doesn't smell right.

Drakul just makes him fall into a portal to elsewhere/nowhere rather than kill him for food or a new recruit? Bad guy.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I still think Chandler doesn't smell right.

Drakul just makes him fall into a portal to elsewhere/nowhere rather than kill him for food or a new recruit? Bad guy.

I've had the exact same thought.  It would be quite inconvenient from a story telling perspective to make Yoshino or Wild Bill the bad guy, seeing as they were both killed by Drakul, so that leaves Ramirez or Chandler.  I favored Chandler as the traitor until I realized that Ramirez was probably the only one of the wardens present who could track Harry all day.  The only one who could compile a report of what Harry had been up to.

I could be wrong.  We could be told later that Ramirez had some way of transferring the tracking spell so all of the wardens could take turns following Harry, then it could very well be Chandler.  I think Jim has hinted that Chandler will appear in Mirror Mirror.  If that happens then this question might get answered.

Even if Chandler does turn out to be the bad guy, that doesn't negate the fact the Ramirez has taken a bad turn.  By that, I don't mean he's necessarily turned to the dark side.  It could be Ramirez has been traumatized to the point where he's becoming a younger version of Morgan.  Becoming harder, less tolerant and more likely see a threat that needs to be removed rather than a friend who needs to be reasoned with.

Now that I think about this scenario, when Warden Morgan died the Merlin lost his right hand man.  It would make sense for Langtry to be looking for a replacement.  Someone like Ramirez might be a perfect candidate for the Merlin to recruit.

[Mira]

Now that I think about this scenario, when Warden Morgan died the Merlin lost his right hand man.  It would make sense for Langtry to be looking for a replacement.  Someone like Ramirez might be a perfect candidate for the Merlin to recruit.

  Which fits nicely with Ramirez being hurt both physically and emotionally in more ways than one by the Lady of Winter.. And who might Carlos blame for Molly's current status? Harry, so be open to anything Langtree said negative about him.. It also fits with what I said about the scene in Proven Guilty where Harry bested Langtree politically, thus seen as a threat to be removed at some point by Langtree. 

I would be surprised if Chandler turns out to be the bad guy.

[g33k]

...
I would be surprised if Chandler turns out to be the bad guy.

Dunno:  Jim seems awfully fond of the  posh British accent = bad guy  trope!

[Mira]

Dunno:  Jim seems awfully fond of the  posh British accent = bad guy  trope!

 Yeah, or is it because that's the easiest to write?  As far as the Corner Hounds go, Justine was inhabited by a Walker, so it may not be a huge mystery after all as to who called up the hounds..

[g33k]

... As far as the Corner Hounds go, Justine was inhabited by a Walker, so it may not be a huge mystery after all as to who called up the hounds..

I don't think it works that way.

Outsider-summoning needs mortal free will; being possessed by a Walker and made to perform a ritual is pretty much the opposite of that.

[Mira]

I don't think it works that way.

Outsider-summoning needs mortal free will; being possessed by a Walker and made to perform a ritual is pretty much the opposite of that.

You're are right, here is a little tin hat zinger maybe, who are the people in Justine's circle friends? It is possible from her job at Casa Raith that she might have hooked up with occult types who unwittingly were used by her? Or at least didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing.  If I remember correctly from Blood Rites, of the three women who called up the Outsider, only Madge [I believe that was her name] understood what they were really doing.  What happened here may have been a variation of that.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Cowl has controlled at least three sorcerers in the Files in Chicago alone. The surviving one who abducted the pups summoned up giant monkeys throwing flaming poop, so Cowl has at least one human mortal Sorceror on speed dial who is good at summoning and has likely been polished by him for exactly this type of task. Yet another reason to consider Nameless (a scion) is Cowl. He has been training black magic practitioners in Chicago for years whilst Nameless has been practicing law in the same city.

[g33k]

You're are right, here is a little tin hat zinger maybe, who are the people in Justine's circle friends? It is possible from her job at Casa Raith that she might have hooked up with occult types who unwittingly were used by her? Or at least didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing.  If I remember correctly from Blood Rites, of the three women who called up the Outsider, only Madge [I believe that was her name] understood what they were really doing.  What happened here may have been a variation of that.

Cowl has controlled at least three sorcerers in the Files in Chicago alone. The surviving one who abducted the pups summoned up giant monkeys throwing flaming poop, so Cowl has at least one human mortal Sorceror on speed dial who is good at summoning and has likely been polished by him for exactly this type of task. Yet another reason to consider Nameless (a scion) is Cowl. He has been training black magic practitioners in Chicago for years whilst Nameless has been practicing law in the same city.

Let's be clear, though:  we don't know that this "who" matters.  As quoted above, it could have been some low-level mook, really; or Cowl himself, or another (possibly unidentified) Power-Player, making a Play; or anyone anywhere on the spectrum between "mook" and "Power Player".

I don't think we know if this detail matters until we know the broader implications... did this happen because someone was after Harry?  Eb?  Following them?  Surveilling Justine?

Given the end-of-story revelation about Justine, my bet is that the connection is there; but we don't know what it is...  For all we know, sexy Justine could have found some stupid-horny teenaged squib living in another aprtment in the building, and taught them the necessary rituals.

[Mira]

Given the end-of-story revelation about Justine, my bet is that the connection is there; but we don't know what it is...  For all we know, sexy Justine could have found some stupid-horny teenaged squib living in another aprtment in the building, and taught them the necessary rituals.

 I don't disagree, I think it is the obvious connection.

Outsider-summoning needs mortal free will; being possessed by a Walker and made to perform a ritual is pretty much the opposite of that.

But do we know that for sure?  It has been a while since I read Blood Rites and the bits I carefully reread several times was the scenes between Eb and Harry.. My bad, I do remember that it takes a mortal, but does it also need free will?  I just don't remember that bit, and of the three woman who summoned the Outsider, while you can say Madge used her free will to do it, but did the other two women?  For that matter, how much did Madge really understand and could you say her free will was also compromised? At the very least due to lack of understanding the other women's free will was compromised. And there are examples, i.e. it was the basis for Uriel's interference in Harry's suicide.  If HWWB was able to convince her that Harry was a threat to herself, Thomas, and more importantly the baby, Justine could very well of her own free will do what was needed to summon the Corner Hounds.. Come to think of it, how did Justine get possessed to begin with?

[g33k]

... But do we know that for sure? 

We haven't seen it explicitly stated, that I recall.

But we have seen throughout the series how much mortal Choice and mortal Free Will is a cornerstone of the Dresdenverse.  I cannot really believe that "Opening the Outer Gates" is an exception.

Also (logistically speaking) it can't be that easy, or the VERY first thing any Outsider would do, when it got to the Mortal world, would be to possess a mortal and summon up a crapton more Outsiders, who in turn would scatter widely and each then possess another mortal and summon yet more, who themselves scatter & etc etc etc until the flood of Outsiders met on the far side of the globe... BigApocalypticTrilogyTheEnd.

... I just don't remember that bit, and of the three woman who summoned the Outsider, while you can say Madge used her free will to do it, but did the other two women?  For that matter, how much did Madge really understand and could you say her free will was also compromised? At the very least due to lack of understanding the other women's free will was compromised...

I don't think it takes perfectly-uncompromised free will, perfectly-informed consent.

Indeed, from what we know of the Dresden Files, nobody(*) within Creation has "perfectly informed consent" regarding the Outsiders!  You just need to know that you're summoning Something Bad, to do Something Bad; and be willing to do that.

... If HWWB was able to convince her that Harry was a threat to herself, Thomas, and more importantly the baby, Justine could very well of her own free will do what was needed to summon the Corner Hounds. Come to think of it, how did Justine get possessed to begin with? 

I think Justine is too clued-in to fall for such a lie.  Harry is the only person who believes in Thomas' "innocence" (in the sense of "a rational excuse for doing what he did"), the only person with any chance of getting Thomas freed.

As for "how" she got Nemfected:  we obviously don't know, but my bet is that Papa Raith's "private collection" was somehow involved, and Justine (as Lara's "helper") was exposed.  I think there's likely more Outsider magic there, both other spells and "magic items" (akin to Morgana's Athame (though not necessarily that strong)).


(*) At least, virtually nobody within Creation
 

[vincentric]

I don't think lack of understanding constitutes a compromising of free will. People do stupid and dangerous things they don't understand all the time without being under malign influence. Bad choices are just bad.

[Mira]

I don't think lack of understanding constitutes a compromising of free will. People do stupid and dangerous things they don't understand all the time without being under malign influence. Bad choices are just bad.

  It is true that bad choices are still bad choices, and people do do stupid things. That's one thing, but if a person is given wrong information or is lied to and thinks he or she is making the best choice based on bad information or lies, but wouldn't have made that choice if he or she got the right information or the truth.. Does that not mean that his or her free will was screwed with?  Harry chose to suicide based on the lies that Lasciel whispered in his ear.  Because he made his free choice based on her lies, Uriel was allowed to step in because since his choice was based on lies, it really wasn't a free choice.  I know, this stuff gives me a headache too...

We haven't seen it explicitly stated, that I recall.

But we have seen throughout the series how much mortal Choice and mortal Free Will is a cornerstone of the Dresdenverse.  I cannot really believe that "Opening the Outer Gates" is an exception.

Also (logistically speaking) it can't be that easy, or the VERY first thing any Outsider would do, when it got to the Mortal world, would be to possess a mortal and summon up a crapton more Outsiders, who in turn would scatter widely and each then possess another mortal and summon yet more, who themselves scatter & etc etc etc until the flood of Outsiders met on the far side of the globe... BigApocalypticTrilogyTheEnd.

I don't think its that easy for an Outsider to possess a mortal to begin with.. Influence maybe, remember way back in Storm Front when Harry almost peed his pants because he saw or thought he saw He Who Walks Behind following one of those kids on Third Eye in the police station? I think it is more of a gray area and Jim is keeping it vague on purpose... Ask him and he is going to say, "I ain't a going to tell you..."

I think Justine is too clued-in to fall for such a lie.  Harry is the only person who believes in Thomas' "innocence" (in the sense of "a rational excuse for doing what he did"), the only person with any chance of getting Thomas freed.

Yet she told him a whole boat load of lies when he went to see her in the apartment didn't she. Why did she do that? To throw him off the scent of what really happened, and it almost worked up until the last minute when they were almost to the island and Harry figured it out.  He believed her up until that moment because he too believed that she was too clued in to fall for lies, loved Thomas and believed in his innocence.  In the end his star born "spidy sense" tipped him off to the presence of He Who Walks Beside.

As for "how" she got Nemfected:  we obviously don't know, but my bet is that Papa Raith's "private collection" was somehow involved, and Justine (as Lara's "helper") was exposed.  I think there's likely more Outsider magic there, both other spells and "magic items" (akin to Morgana's Athame (though not necessarily that strong)).

I think it happened on the island when Maeve got killed at the end of Cold Days.  If the Winter Lady Mantle can jump to the nearest vessel as it did into Molly, why can't the Neminfection?  It wants to survive also, and poor Justine became it's new vessel.