Goodman Grey, nemfected?

[Mira]

Ivy is a teenager at this point, so of course she was eavesdropping on her ‘parent’. Occam’s razor.

Even so, it doesn't explain why she didn't insist that he didn't shoot Harry at all.

[RobReece]

Even so, it doesn't explain why she didn't insist that he didn't shoot Harry at all.

The only way I see it,  is that she was aware of what Uriel had intended... but I'm not sure if I buy that or not...

[vincentric]

I think it was more about hope than anything else. Harry was her only friend, but she had to respect the possibility that he was correct in ordering his execution. Kincaid was the only parent she's known, but she accepts that he is a professional who's already accepted the job and payment. It would ruin him professionally to cancel after that.

By not stopping Kincaid completely, Ivy respected Harry's wishes and Kincaid's professionalism but by making it a chest shot she preserved the chance for an intervention and save.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Ivy knew all the statistical  and medical data ever recorded about gunshot wounds, she knew Harry’s chance of survival increased with a heart shot rather than a head shot.

She also would have known that Uriel with his universal Intellectus knew it as soon as the decision was taken by Kincaid it would be a heart shot and not a head shot. She knew Kincaid would not abandon a contract from his past recorded history. She would also have known of Harry’s involvement with Uriel from information recorded somewhere, most likely from Monoc’s records which we are shown are computerised from Harry’s visit to HQ. We also know Kringle and Uriel lunch each year (I am betting on 6 December the feast day of the Saint Nicholas, and it was put in deliberately to cover this point) so it was likely discussed then (Kringle also has  soul fire making it a topic of discussion) and later notarised by Kringle, coming to Ivy’s attention.

Uriel contacts Mab about the suicide attempt the limit to what he can do AND MAB ALLOWS THE SHOT TO OCCUR knowing that she,  Demonreach and Uriel can save Harry, but teaching him the lessons he is going to need from Ghost Story and his recuperation in Cold Days.

Mab must have realised Harry would try this ploy at some point as he did the same to Lea. He therefore needed to work through it and Ivy gave him the option. Uriel then alerts Mab the hit is going to occur imminently on Thomas Boat, which happens to be within Demoreaches sphere of influence. She is therefore in the right place to save Harry.

It’s all rather simple really, we have been given all the necessary information.

[Mira]

I think it was more about hope than anything else. Harry was her only friend, but she had to respect the possibility that he was correct in ordering his execution. Kincaid was the only parent she's known, but she accepts that he is a professional who's already accepted the job and payment. It would ruin him professionally to cancel after that.

By not stopping Kincaid completely, Ivy respected Harry's wishes and Kincaid's professionalism but by making it a chest shot she preserved the chance for an intervention and save.

I think part of the problem is there is the Archive, and then there is Ivy.  Ivy is the very human vessel for the Archive, still a young teenager with the emotional needs of a teenager.  Problem, because of her mother's suicide when she was a baby, she was never allowed to have that side of her develop properly, both Harry and oddly Kincaid tried to fill that void.  Luccio warned Harry that messing with the human child, Ivy would have serious consequences for the Archive. My theory is the Archive unemotionally agreed with Uriel's plan understanding Harry's importance in the bigger picture.  Ivy, reacted in a fairly normal human way, she was upset in the extreme with both her human mentors, it was out of her hands as far as what was to happen, though she did get Kincaid to agree to the heart verses the head shot.  Then she made a decision in her hurt, she divorced herself from human emotion, and the two guys that treated her like an ordinary young girl, and became the Archive for real.  It could have been worse, she could have gone "postal" as Luccio had warned, killed Kincaid and Harry leading to who knows what.. But she didn't, I think Ivy still loves both men as father figures with no desire to physically hurt either, though emotionally she was hurt.  She had just enough emotional maturity to punish both men, no more contact as before, and retreated into her Archive persona..  I further think Luccio was wrong and Harry and Kincaid were right, to be a balanced Archive, Ivy needed to experience their affection and to give them affection in return, it is the human element.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I think that Harry as part of the wider BAt will as a side effect free Ivy of being the Archive by removing the need for her.

[Mira]

I think that Harry as part of the wider BAt will as a side effect free Ivy of being the Archive by removing the need for her.

  I don't think that will ever happen because one of the functions of the Archive is to be the keeper of the history of mankind.  That will always be needed.

[g33k]

There was a question I'd had, the shot Kincaid took wasn't any past event written down or even discussed...

If a phone call travels over any portion of digitized network -- and that's almost inevitable, these days -- then it's "written" within the remit of the Archive.  So Ivy had a copy of the phone-call.

Ivy is a teenager at this point, so of course she was eavesdropping on her ‘parent’. Occam’s razor.

<heh>
A very "human" notion, I like it!  Thumbing your nose at the whole galaxy of spookyside wierdness-explanations.

But Jim has already confirmed that the Archive contains digital info, the entire Internet.
So, digitized phone lines, too.

Even so, it doesn't explain why she didn't insist that he didn't shoot Harry at all.

Having accepted the contract, Kincaid would never relent.  Ivy cannot "insist."

Unless she is willing to permanently imprison him, engage in memory-erasing magic, or otherwise "remove him from play," Ivy can't stop the hit.

[Mira]

Unless she is willing to permanently imprison him, engage in memory-erasing magic, or otherwise "remove him from play," Ivy can't stop the hit.

  Yet she managed to change it from instant death to probable death, which fits into Uriel's plan.

[g33k]

  Yet she managed to change it from instant death to probable death, which fits into Uriel's plan.

Exactly.
She knew Kincaid's own code of honor would require him to place a "kill shot."  Barring outside interference, Harry certainly (not just "probably") would die:  Kincaid doesn't make that kind of mistake.

But that's why:

Even so, it doesn't explain why she didn't insist that he didn't shoot Harry at all.

It remains unknown whether Ivy was party to the Mab/Odin/Uriel plot, or just inferred that they would situate themselves to be that "outside interference" needed for Harry to survive.

[Mira]

It remains unknown whether Ivy was party to the Mab/Odin/Uriel plot, or just inferred that they would situate themselves to be that "outside interference" needed for Harry to survive.

Yes, that is unknown, as far as facts go, we do know for a fact that Mab and Uriel conspired, she confessed that much when Harry woke up.  It isn't too far a stretch to include the Archive/Ivy in the plot.  Here is why, while the shot to the heart and not the head would make death probable but not instant, that still depended on Harry landing in the water, where Mab just happened to be waiting to receive him.  Had he fallen on the deck he would have swiftly bled out and died. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Uriel/Mab/Odin conspiracy is for the protection of humanity, the Archive is for the protection of human knowledge. The is a certain synchronicity in their purposes. If Harry is judged to be key for the survival of humanity then he is also key to the survival of human knowledge.

[Mira]

The Uriel/Mab/Odin conspiracy is for the protection of humanity, the Archive is for the protection of human knowledge. The is a certain synchronicity in their purposes. If Harry is judged to be key for the survival of humanity then he is also key to the survival of human knowledge.

 Yes, and to that point you'd have the Archive coldly assessing the situation and going along with the plan.  However, the vessel of the Archive is a very human teenage girl who felt betrayed by the two humans she felt connected to and loved. In the end, human Ivy may have understood their motives, but she could not forgive them.  Cutting herself off from them was a very human way of protecting herself emotionally.  She also learned a hard lesson about the balance of human emotions verses the cold rational power of the Archive.  Unlike her mother, she realized the only way to sanity for her was to divorce herself from her human emotions and become the Archive.

[g33k]

...  It isn't too far a stretch to include the Archive/Ivy in the plot.  Here is why, while the shot to the heart and not the head would make death probable but not instant, that still depended on Harry landing in the water, where Mab just happened to be waiting to receive him.  Had he fallen on the deck he would have swiftly bled out and died.

Yeah; Ivy as one of those conspirators has a really strong argument.
OTOH, it's only a circumstantial argument... Jim very well may (but also very well may not) plot it that way, write it that way.

[g33k]

... the Archive is for the protection of human knowledge...

No, the Archive is there to be Commander in Chief of the Oblivion War.
The "Human Knowledge" thing is just a cover.

AFAIK, info seldom (if ever) flows back out of the Archive, to "protect humanity's knowledge."

Secrets of Damascene steel were lost for about 1000 years; Roman concrete for 2000 years.  They were rediscovered through extensive human effort & research... not "found" in some "lost historical record" (i.e. released from the Archive).

Used to be, the Archive would Oracle stuff out to humanity; but not practical use-it-now info, it was oracular-foretelling shit that mostly people couldn't use, would only recognize after the fat... after the tragic warnings were overlooked, came to pass, and people said "if only we had realized..."