Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?

[g33k]

... But across the entirety of the Dresden Files, we've never seen it happen. Maybe it's one of those rules, "Fae can't tell a direct lie." or "Circles block magic crossing them." I can accept one, why not the other?

Indeed!  I too can accept that.

But across the entirety of the Dresden files, how many times have we seem Harry explain those other rules (faeries cannot tell a direct lie, circles block magic)?  Whether it's Harry explaining to Butters, or Murph, or another character; or narrator-to-reader exposition; we've had each of those rules (and several others) explained many many times.

But all we get, about Bob vs sunlight, is that he's gotta be home before the clock strikes fiat lux.  Never any mention, in that context, of why Bob cannot use the means that a bunch of other entities (who all need SPF-infinty sunscreen) use.

[Mira]

But across the entirety of the Dresden files, how many times have we seem Harry explain those other rules (faeries cannot tell a direct lie, circles block magic)?  Whether it's Harry explaining to Butters, or Murph, or another character; or narrator-to-reader exposition; we've had each of those rules (and several others) explained many many times.

At the same time there seem to be exceptions to the rule.  The Fae cannot tell a direct lie, but Mab manages to tell indirect ones or ones by omission.  When Harry calls her on that, her answer is that it is on him, because he messed up on his question.  Or perhaps because she was human once, still is a smidge human, that gives her a loop hole that she will drive through with a truck if she has to.

Circles aren't all powerful either, remember Uriel being amused by Harry's attempt at a circle in Changes?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Remember we are seeing things from Harry’s perspective and he is an unreliable narrator. The universal laws are therefore subject to the observer effect I.e Harry’s interpretation, and that changes over time.

Mab’s capacity to mislead Harry is diminishing as Harry wises up (beyond his ass) indeed Harry is starting to use Mab’s words against her, in The Law her casual reference to the company car is turned against her into a trespass against Winter which she cannot ignore. That annoys her.

Uriel exists simultaneous as the same being in every universe, you probably have to catch him in a circle in every universe. Harry didn’t know that. He does now.

What he knows of Bob’s powers and limitations are what Bob has shown him. Harry is surprised by the Kemmler revelations for example. Bob does not really volunteer information.

Because we haven’t seen it does’t mean it isn’t possible. Or impossible.

Why can Harry and Goodman Grey summon ectoplasm but Bob can’t?

Are the Sanctums Etienne and Harry crafted for Bob exactly the same with exactly the limitations? Bob would try to ensure it isn’t and the fact Harry wouldn’t use a human skull might be the cause. What if the use of mortal remains blocks the ability to draw ectoplasm? Or blocks access from and to the Never Never. So that Bob couldn’t manifest a body and strangle Etienne in his sleep? Ghosts can use their graves (but no one elses) as sanctums so there is some connection

Is the Castle itself a Sanctum? (If it isn’t it would be vulnerable to a dawn attack) if so Bob could manifest a body inside it but arrange d to let Harry know this because he would realise Bob tricked him over the new Sanctum.

[Mira]

  It had been a while since I read Ghost Story, but as I remember it, the only time Harry describes
Bob with a body, is when he is inside Bob's scull and goes on to also describe the living quarters inside the scull.  Not unlike DR Who's Tardis seems to be bigger on the inside than the outside or the scull that we see like the Police Box.  I remember Evil Bob running around, but I cannot remember beyond that.  However I think that was on a different plane of existence, allowing for Evil Bob to have a body.. Or since he is Evil Bob, he can chose to break the rules that normally define Bob's existence.  Otherwise outside of his scull, Bob doesn't have a body, when Harry has given him leave or asked him to explore, he usually has to do it with Mister as a car, he can't just go on his own.  In the chase in Skin Game, Bob is still in his scull in a special pack that Butters invented.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

That was within Bob’s mind scape but that is Bob’s body image and his likely default form. It’s like the Molly Mindscape in the battle with Corpsetaker.

In Evil Bob’s demesne both Bob and Evil Bob manifested physical form, and you would expect EB to be as vulnerable as Bob, and he put up all those defensed I suspect not to protect from the lecter spectres but from Mab’s agents and to buy him time to escape, but EB does not manifest physically in the mortal world. This may suggest Bob/EB can’t be easily traced in either the NeverNever or the mortal world, but drawing ectoplasm in the mortal world is traceable, but not in the NeverNever.

[Avernite]

Perhaps the skull protects AND limits Bob? Perhaps it makes it impossible for him to go into body mode.

[g33k]

At the same time there seem to be exceptions to the rule.  The Fae cannot tell a direct lie, but Mab manages to tell indirect ones or ones by omission.  When Harry calls her on that, her answer is that it is on him, because he messed up on his question...

The "faeries cannot tell a lie" rule is *always* hedged-about with "cannot tell a direct lie" and "but that has never stopped them from deceiving" language.  It's not an "exception" at all, it's very precisely what it is, and nothing at all to do with "honesty" or "good character" &c.

Faeries cannot tell a direct lie.
Faeries cannot cheat on the exact terms of a bargain.
etc.
But the human isn't entitled to honesty, nor to any "spirit of the bargain" or what they thought they were getting.  Only the exact terms.

[Mira]

The "faeries cannot tell a lie" rule is *always* hedged-about with "cannot tell a direct lie" and "but that has never stopped them from deceiving" language.  It's not an "exception" at all, it's very precisely what it is, and nothing at all to do with "honesty" or "good character" &c.

Faeries cannot tell a direct lie.
Faeries cannot cheat on the exact terms of a bargain.
etc.
But the human isn't entitled to honesty, nor to any "spirit of the bargain" or what they thought they were getting.  Only the exact terms.

  In other words, they cheat.. In any bargain with them there is always a loop hole.. The Fae were the original lawyers..

[g33k]

  In other words, they cheat...

No, they don't.  It may not be fair, but the fae are not cheating.
It isn't fair when a chess Grandmaster beats a regular player; but that's not cheating, either.

[Mira]

No, they don't.  It may not be fair, but the fae are not cheating.
It isn't fair when a chess Grandmaster beats a regular player; but that's not cheating, either.

A Grandmaster uses skill and tactics to beat a regular player, no that isn't cheating.. But not true of the Fae, they cannot lie, yet use loopholes to get out of a bargain.. You might think you have an understanding with Mab, but what you think you understand and what she says she understood as she screws you and gets the better part of the bargain are two different things... I call that cheating... That is what happens when you ask most politicians a direct question, they rarely answer it directly.. You come away thinking you understand one thing, call them on it, and they will tell you what you think they said, wasn't what they said at all... Mab pulls that one all of the time, as do most Fae, that is why it is so dangerous to bargain with them...

[vincentric]

But they aren't lying.

They are using every method they can to be deceptive, but they avoid the actual act of lying directly. It's a game they constantly play among themselves and with others. They twist the wording of bargains for every advantage they can because they are bound by them. Bad things happen to them if they don't keep their promises.

The "Cannot tell a direct lie." trope is present in many books and in all of them, the group bound by it is marked by speaking in weasel words.  You bargain with them at your own peril. Look at the Aes Sedai in the WoT for example.
 
There is no spirit or fairness in Winter Law, only the letter.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

When Harry took on Puck at cards, Puck expected Harry as a mortal to cheat, but as a Wizard to use magic. I think Harry used sleight of hand and cheated anyway. There is no way he was going to rely on his luck.

That is where Harry has an advantage against a fae, it’s like how he cheated Lea, as an immortal it was difficult for her to appreciate Harry using a suicide ploy, as with a puck and the sleight of hand it’s outside of her normal frame of reference. Mab used to be human her frame of reference is wider. The suicide ploy did not work on her, but the’company car’ ploy did. Modern arrangements such as a “company car” are too modern and outside her frame of reference,

[Mira]

They are using every method they can to be deceptive, but they avoid the actual act of lying directly. It's a game they constantly play among themselves and with others. They twist the wording of bargains for every advantage they can because they are bound by them. Bad things happen to them if they don't keep their promises.

 Like with politicians..

[vincentric]

Like with politicians..

Yes and no.

Politicians say weasel words and half-truths all the time because its better PR-wise so when they don't follow through. They can claim that their words were misunderstood.

The Fae hedge their words so that they can fulfill their oaths in the way most advantageous to them. They always keep their promises, but opinions may differ on what the promise actually was.

[Mira]

The Fae hedge their words so that they can fulfill their oaths in the way most advantageous to them. They always keep their promises, but opinions may differ on what the promise actually was.

 Have you ever observed a good politician when confronted about their words or their promises? They generally claim that they have kept their promise no matter what our judgement of it is.