Winter Law

[cander891]

In Peace Talks Lara’s second favor is to have Harry help him with getting Thomas out. But in essence doing so violates Winter Law by violating the accords. So does this mean the favor outweighs the law or does it mean that Harry can do it as long as he does it without being caught in violation??

I only ask this question because in Cold Days it’s established that even verbalizing that he is going to violate Winter Law damn near capacitates him (with Lakuna).

I feel like there is a bit of contradiction here. But maybe I am misunderstanding the difference between Winter Law and the Accords.

[Elequosoraptor]

They aren't the same. The Accords govern interaction between supernatural nations (with a specific meaning of the word 'nation' that includes entities and organizations like Marcone's empire and Drakul). Winter Law governs, Winter. Not even Faerie as a whole, just Winter. It's internal only. The confusion arises because Mab is the one organizing and enforcing the Accords, which means that creatures of Winter need to adhere to them especially because Mab has more ability to investigate and enforce the Accords with them than with anyone else.

[Nooneofconsequence]

I'm not sure Mab would appreciate just anyone violating the accords without getting caught, but for her Knight?  While she would absolutely punish him for getting caught,  I think it's fair to say she considers it a training exercise in ingenuity and cunning, so long as he doesn't get caught. 

[Tinfoil hat]

Winter has a whole are rules lawyers. They respect intelligence, and ingenuity. Mab doesn't allow anyone to break winter law. But its only breaking the law if get caught as every criminal has said. And getting caught is  the worst thing her knight can do. If reflects badly on the knight and on Her. Being caught says that the Knight is incompetent and by extension  so is FREAKING MAB

[Cthoniq]

Mab has demonstrated her dubious regard for the accords several times, and she literally wrote into them that there is no spirit of the accords, only the letter. In basically every book she's had a major appearance in, she's come very close to violating the accords herself. She doesn't care about the moral principle of keeping clear of grey areas, she uses those grey areas to her advantage. Keep in mind that she's helped nations violate each other's territory, tried to kill freeholding lords, specifically ordered her knight into situations she knew were dancing on the bleeding edge of the law. Then Lara Raith the queen of tretchery comes up like "hey mab, do you mind if I cash in my favors in an extremely specific way that gives me access to the literal only person in your court who is both capable of violating winter law, and probably won't tell you if he does?" You think mab didn't read the subtext there? Mab is not an ethical person, she's a person bound by ironclad rules she does her best to violate.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry got away with it without embarrassing Winter. All rules complied with.

[g33k]

... in Cold Days it’s established that even verbalizing that he is going to violate Winter Law damn near capacitates him (with Lakuna)...

I have a WAG that Mab took a direct hand in pulling the wool over Harry's eyes, there.
She wanted him checked, less-willing to play fast & loose with the rules.
So she explicitly whammie'd him in that moment.  Act of Mab, not an act of "Winter Law."

[Mira]

I have a WAG that Mab took a direct hand in pulling the wool over Harry's eyes, there.
She wanted him checked, less-willing to play fast & loose with the rules.
So she explicitly whammie'd him in that moment.  Act of Mab, not an act of "Winter Law."

  How very "Mab-like.."

[Tinfoil hat]

I have a WAG that Mab took a direct hand in pulling the wool over Harry's eyes, there.
She wanted him checked, less-willing to play fast & loose with the rules.
So she explicitly whammie'd him in that moment.  Act of Mab, not an act of "Winter Law."

It could be but my guess is somewhat different
Harry shouted fuck winter law in front of non winter beings. Embarrassing Mab and Winter in the process. To disobey Winter law requires subtlety. Wc Harry clearly lacks

[g33k]

It could be but my guess is somewhat different
Harry shouted fuck winter law in front of non winter beings. Embarrassing Mab and Winter in the process. To disobey Winter law requires subtlety. Wc Harry clearly lacks

I just don't think "Winter Law" is that... sapient.  I don't think it listens to words, intentions.  I don't think it can be "embarrassed."

It is -- for lack of a better term -- very letter-of-the-law.

[vincentric]

I don't think this is a case of Mab wanting him checked so much as wanting him educated.

This occurred during CD. It was Harry's first job as Winter Knight and it was about Maeve and her Nemfection.

So, Mab may have been paying closer attention than normal to Harry. He didn't even violate Winter Law, just stated his intention to do so and got a not-so-subtle reminder of his oaths and employment status. She may have even wanted it to occur in this manner so she could rebuke him without it being a public thing before the court. That way she could keep his discipline light.

[Mira]

I don't think this is a case of Mab wanting him checked so much as wanting him educated.

 She educated him alright, when he spoke out against Winter, he found his back broken again.  Or at least he thought that it was, Mab proved her point as to who was in charge.

[g33k]

She educated him alright, when he spoke out against Winter, he found his back broken again.  Or at least he thought that it was, Mab proved her point as to who was in charge.

Yeah, I think it was all Mab; and essentially, an illusion.
She nailed him right in his expectations, played on his prior despair at being helpless, hopeless.

He didn't try to fight it.

It echoed the time when Harry unmasked "Shiela," and Lasciel's Shadow created the illusion of fire:  Harry was out the window and about to throw himself over, not trying to fight the unexpected potency of the illusion.  Later, Harry realized he was in charge of his own head, and could *always* bring the illusions under control.

I don't know if he has realized that about Mab's ability to mess with his sensations, yet (he can control those, too).  Note -- she is carefully not messing with his mind (as per his prior threat to become a "mediocre knight" if she did):  she messes with the sensations, and he freely chooses to react as she wants.

Very Mab.

Harry will realize... eventually.
He'll be intensely annoyed... but at least 50% of it will be annoyance at himself.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry now has a lawyer, a good one in Max Valorious which evens the playing field with Mab considerably now that he has realised he can use Winter Law to manipulate Mab.

You see Winter Law makes Harry subject to manipulation by Mab BUT it also makes Mab subject to manipulation by Harry, and Mab can’t cheat or be seen to be cheating, but Harry is a wizard.

Worse Molly is learning from Harry, in the Good People Molly also finds a loophole and mercilessly exploits it to Mabs chagrin and bemusement. She forgot Molly was also a Wizard.

[g33k]

Harry now has a lawyer, a good one in Max Valorious which evens the playing field with Mab considerably now that he has realised he can use Winter Law to manipulate Mab ...

Max is a bit of an enigma; we'll have to see if he has an ongoing role (I hope he does!).
(by the bye:  is it just another PJBRH (Patented Jim Butcher Red Herring), or is it something meaningful that we hear Max's wife, but never see her??!?  Last time we heard a querulous old woman speaking from offstage, IIRC, it was Mab's voice(!?)... and it would be just like Mab to put in play a counterweight (a balance) to Talvi Inverno...  (on the third hand, balancing Winter's moves within the mortal realm is Summer's job, so maybe "Heloise" is Titania?  Or (Winter-trained!) Sarissa?))

I'm unclear how Max got as clued-in as he is.  He says he's trying to avoid entanglements with the Spookyside, but seems to know incredibly-much for a brilliant legalist who's actively avoiding it!

Still, he'd need some expert tutelage in order to be able to finesse the ins and outs of Winter Law.