In Retrospect The Relevance Of Storm Front and Full Moon

[Conspiracy Theorist]

“We learn much later that what is going on with Morgan in regards to Harry is much more complicated that it appears to be in Storm Front.”

Morgan is set up from day 1 in Storm Front, as being unfairly hard on Harry) we learn in Journal Morgan was supposed to protect young Harry ( a future where Harry was Morgan’s apprentice perhaps!) this does suggest to me Cowl via the Peabody connection scooped up the Young Harry, not as a weapon against the Red Court (Cowl wanted the thorough destruction of the WC and was against Ariana’s scheme, but because of Harry’s Starborn status. It was known to members of the Senior Council in Summer Knight, how long had Peabody been seeking to influence the WC? If Cowl is Nameless that would be from when Cowl was paperclipped into Winter in the 50’s. Was Cowl through Peabody responsible for the break between Margaret LeFay and Eb and the suggestion of her using her ability of the ways to “Time” a child perfectly. Worse yet we know that Eb was planning to make her Blackstaff in his stead, as a female Blackstaff she could break the laws of magic and have a child as a Starborn by time travel. Is this why was that what made her run away? Was why the Wardens pursued he? Morgan was a much better candidate for Blackstaff, except he was male, the Captain was past child bearing age at this point. Margaret was barely 100 years old when she had Harry, so she was in her 70’s or 80’s when she ran away and began gathering her unique knowledge of the Ways. Why pass over both of these much better candidates?

She is later scooped up by another Cowl cats paw Papa Raith leading to Thomas, when her knowledge of the Ways suggest a second way to manipulate Harry’s birth. If Cowl is Nameless he is inside Winter at this point and sees a way to get his very own Starborn via Lord Raith. But why after showing she could do this she voluntarily ‘Time’ a child as Starborn? All I can think of is that Uriel or the Gatekeeper intervened at this point telling her that Harry would be key to the future, but only if his father was this particular good man.

I think ‘born’ in the context is when the umbilical cord is cut and the baby is independent of the mother so you could have a practiotioner midwife being able to wait a few minutes. Margaret manipulates the day and hour via the Never Never and the midwife manipulates the minute and second, by holding off cutting the cord as dawn breaks. I bet the midwife was Lea, she so does love children. Especially firstborn.

[Mira]

I think ‘born’ in the context is when the umbilical cord is cut and the baby is independent of the mother so you could have a practiotioner midwife being able to wait a few minutes. Margaret manipulates the day and hour via the Never Never and the midwife manipulates the minute and second, by holding off cutting the cord as dawn breaks. I bet the midwife was Lea, she so does love children. Especially firstborn.

 I don't think it is so much about the hour the star born child was born, but more of how the planets are lined up at the moment of conception.  Anyway that is how I interpret what Lash told Harry in White Night about how and why he was conceived.  I seem to remember this explanation in a couple of other places.  Both Margaret and Malcolm seem to apologize to Harry about what they did to him, which speaks to preplanning as to his birth under the right astrological set up to be a star born.. There has to be more than just the moment of birth, because anywhere in the world, hundreds if not thousands of kids are born at the same moment.. They cannot all be star born kids. 

[g33k]

I don't think it is so much about the hour the star born child was born, but more of how the planets are lined up at the moment of conception.  Anyway that is how I interpret what Lash told Harry in White Night about how and why he was conceived.

Huh.  That's an interesting notion!  A bit belied by the term "Starborn" (implying when-born; rather than, e.g. "Starchild" etc, "child of the star(s)," i.e. influence at conception).  OTOH, Jim could have chosen "...born" as an intentional obfuscation!  Wouldn't be the first time he has slapped some red paint on a poor innocent herring...

I'll have to go back and read what Lash said in that scene...  It's an idea well-worth a ponder or two, and a re-read.

...  Both Margaret and Malcolm seem to apologize to Harry about what they did to him, which speaks to preplanning as to his birth under the right astrological set up to be a star born ...

Not necessarily.  Speaking as a parent, I've grieved -- and expressed "sorry for..." -- things that were largely outside my control.

Parents often feel "guilty" for not protecting their kids well-enough (even as they go to extremes of self-sacrifice in protecting them).

... There has to be more than just the moment of birth, because anywhere in the world, hundreds if not thousands of kids are born at the same moment.. They cannot all be star born kids.

If there are "hundreds if not thousands" of kids born at the right moment, there were presumably a comparable number conceived at the right moment, too (stork action notwithstanding) !   

But it's not just time but place -- the stars that were overhead in Middle America when Harry was born were dipping below the horizon in Chandler's neck of the woods!

[Mira]

But it's not just time but place -- the stars that were overhead in Middle America when Harry was born were dipping below the horizon in Chandler's neck of the woods!

Like I said, it is more complicated, otherwise it would be poor story telling..

White Night page 363 hardback

"It is relevant," Lasciel said. "because of the circumstances of your birth--because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for areason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump:1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies,of circumstances that would have given a child born under under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

There are other references too but I don't have the time to look for them now where Harry is told that meeting Malcolm was the reason why Margaret decided to conceive him.  My theory is she had been targeted all along to be a mother of a star child, but she rebelled against it.  I think that's what Lord Raith had in mind, but Margaret didn't want that, yes, she had Thomas by him, but Thomas is no star child.  Then she met Malcolm, fell in love, realized his goodness.  This is a critical point in my opinion, because dozens of times through the series Malcolm's good heart is mentioned, that Harry inherited his good heart.  Even Eb tells Harry in Blood Rites he had never seen a soul that was that good... I was paraphrasing, and at five in the morning on a quarter cup of coffee I'm not going to look up another exact quote at this time... Anyway, back to the subject, Margaret wanted to balance the power of a star child with the goodness that hopefully her son would get from his father. 

"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies,of circumstances that would have given a child born under under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders

That reeks of family planning once Margaret met and married Malcolm, Harry was no accident, his father sets him apart from the other star born we've met, i.e. Drakul and Listen.  I think Morgan may have known of her plan, or there is a hint that he knew from the mini-story, but it wasn't till nearly the end of his life did he fully trust it or Harry.  Harry is also told a couple of times that he was meant to be a weapon, that's what Justin was hoping to exploit for his own reasons, but Harry escaped him.

Which brings up another idea in my coffee deprived mind.. Mab clearly wants to and does use her now Knight Harry as a weapon.. Most likely that was part of the plan all along, why Harry ended up with a real Fae godmother.  But Malcolm remains the real wildcard, maybe why he was murdered, because who ever did it was hoping that it would minimize his influence over his son and spoil the plans others had for their "weapon," Harry..

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I am not sure Mab was planning for Harry, her reach and knowledge is limited to a single universe.

Uriel on the other hand does not have such limitations, and he can look through each universe as time goes by and pick winners. This Harry came to his attention in Grave Peril and the decision he made, the MM Harry eliminated himself from the infinite line-up of Champions. Mab simply is not the top of the tree on this. Malcolm was only the way for someone actively plotting to use a Starborn, Cowl/Nameless and the Senior Council, Lea just had a bargain, as is her wont and Mab becomes interested in Harry only after Grave Peril when Uriel is in a position to manipulate Mab. “Your Vassal Lea has a contract with Harry Dresden, use that to make him your Winter Knight)

[The_Sibelis]

her reach and knowledge is limited to a single universe

her reach is, not her knowledge. Woj is she shares something of an intellectus awareness with her other selves(borg queen like🤔), context being related to MM and if other Mab would know he's WK elsewhere."answer is not only is she aware of her other selves but with Harry's luck she'd simply decide that he's now hers to command while there)

[g33k]

I am not sure Mab was planning for Harry, her reach and knowledge is limited to a single universe ...

I expect she knows a very great deal indeed about what a "Starborn" is & can be; no multiversal knowledge needed.  As the main defender of the Outer Gates, she must have recognized the advantages of having a Starborn in her service.

I'd expect her to lay plans to get Starborn(s ... plural, as many as she can!) into her service!

And we already have WoJ that Mab lays her battle-plans across multiple generations -- she's relatvely indifferent to "attrition and losses" under the expectation of being able to just recruit more, from the next generation.

I think Mab got into the "Starbabe" plan early.  I do not think it was a coincidence that Mab's Handmaiden became Harry Dresden's Faerie Godmother -- I think Mab's hand was deep in that plot.

[Mira]

I'd expect her to lay plans to get Starborn(s ... plural, as many as she can!) into her service!

Perhaps, but most of her efforts haven't worked out as she would like, that is why since she already knew Margaret well, she may have convinced her after she met Malcolm to conceive of a star child.  I suspect that Rashid had a hand in it as well, he too would know what was to come and what was needed.  I also wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that Rashid was Harry's unofficial godfather.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Mab is entirely absent from Storm Front and Fool Moon. Reference is made to Lea. She does not know what her vassals are doing all the time, hence using spies like the redcap. It cannot safely be assumed she knew about him until between Grave Peril and Summer Knight.

The WOJ I remember is that a Mab is individually powerful enough to contact another Mab, but there is no shared intellectus. That would make it way to easy for Harry in MM, the story is I presume  he has to summon Mab2, convince her he is Mab1 ‘s Winter Knight , dissuade Mab2 from making him  her Winter Knight before making a collect call to Mab1.

If Cowl is Nameless, Storm Front is the first interaction with a major Vassal Harry had with Winter since the original Lea deal. Mab never mentions any this, because she is looking at larger pictures. Mab has limits on her dealings with mortals, and not able (lacking an intllectus) to keep track of everything mortal until it is necessary to her current scheme

[vincentric]

Uhh, your logic kinda fails here.

If Mab is excluded because she isn't in the 1st 2 books, then Nameless who isn't in any of the novels, can't have a major role such as Cowl.

[The_Sibelis]

The WOJ I remember is that a Mab is individually powerful enough to contact another Mab, but there is no shared intellectus

something an intellectus yes. Though since you remember the woj so well perhaps you can produce it?
Ahem, might also examine your understanding of the word intellectus. To percieve. She's perceiving her other selfs.
DR is not the end all be all of what an intellectus is. It even says, The island has a form of intellectus. Mab has another form.

[Mira]

Uhh, your logic kinda fails here.

If Mab is excluded because she isn't in the 1st 2 books, then Nameless who isn't in any of the novels, can't have a major role such as Cowl.

Agreed.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Mothers have general intellectual, as does Uriel, this includes events occurring in other universes. The Queen’s do not. The Archive has an Intellectus of all recorded human knowledge and Harry has two limited intellectus, of the people in his Banner while at war and of Demonreach when on Demonreach. There has been no indication whether Mab has an Intellectus and if so as to what extent, but clearly events in the books indicate she has major holes in her knowledge she has to hire Harry for some things, she admits to a hole in Small Favour, she has suspicions as to the attack on Arctis Tor which she wouldn’t with an Intellectus Covers my even just Winter. If she has an Intellectus built into her Mantle it is likely a scaled up version of Harry’s she has knowledge of her forces deployed at the Gate and during Battle Ground was monitoring two Battles not one, and instructing Lea through it. She doesn’t know Harry from a hole in the ground.

This is why it isn’t Mab behind the scenes in Harry’s life, he only becomes relevant to the defence of everything AFTER Grave Peril. After Grave Peril, she is front and centre, and I suspect Uriel (who is watching all the Harry’s) tipped this Mab off her vassal had a hold she could exploit on Harry because this Harry had made a decision leading to a possible endgame. 

The proof will be Mirror Mirror, if Mab has been behind Harry then it will be apparent in how MM Mab deals with our Harry. In both universes Lea should have been nemfected, but if only our Harry went on to become Winter Knight, the Mab had nothing to do with Harry’s early life.

Mab doesn’t appear in the first two books, but the argument is that Cowl/Nameless is acting behind the scenes in both.

[vincentric]

That's your argument for Cowl to be Nameless but you use the counter argument for Mab not being involved in Harry's early life.

Nameless is an interesting character but Mab and Marcone/Namshiel are better than the Jedi Council at noticing things right under their noses.

[The_Sibelis]

There has been no indication whether Mab has an Intellectus and if so as to what extent,

actually(and just gonna post the whole bit, special thanks to tcf)

We're gonna get some answers in the next book we'll get some more answers in the one after that although fewer. I mean Mirror Mirror is basically we're gonna jump over into the next universe and see how things are going. And we'll sort of be able to see-that universe will be a few years ahead of where Harry's universe is now so you'll sort of be able to see the direction things are going and that should be a lot of fun. Things got worse faster in the mirror universe that we're going to-there's actually an entire spectrum of parallel realities that are existing in the Dresden Files universe and this is just going to be the nearest parallel reality that you can get to that's significantly different. Because there's always a cloud of parallel realities that are almost exactly the same but not quite.

Yeah it's kind of like, I don't know if you've ever seen Stargate or those other sci-fi shows where one new choice basically means one new reality. Wherever there's a fork they split in a row and there's a new reality.

Yeah which is interesting because if you look at that from you know, Uriel's point of view then suddenly the battle of good and evil is all about choices because every choice starts creating more and more different realities, more and more universes eternally branching universes and are they going to be places where good things happen or places where bad things happen? That's kind of an epic struggle if looked at that way.

That's actually interesting because we've talked about that on the podcast several times. I think we all agreed on that even if there's a lot of realities there's one Uriel above all realities, is that how you see it?

Sort of. Yeah I mean Uriel's an archangel so he's like-he's kinda omnipresent in the universe in many ways. He's one of God's deputies he kind of has enormous amounts of power, all the archangels do. But yeah that would be the case, is that when you get to the really high levels of power, beings like Uriel are the same everywhere they go. So poor Uriel has to deal with millions and millions of Harry Dresdens because they're always causing problems and they're always making choices and they're always creating new branches for the universe so poor Uriel just has to deal with so many copies of this guy.

There are actually multiple Uriels but they're all kind of copies of the same guy.

No, no. There's one Uriel and he's everywhere. He just exists through all of the bits of time, but for example if you go to an alternate reality there would be a parallel Mab and the two Mabs would be parallel and they probably would be able to like know about each other and talk to each other if they wanted to but they're just really fucking busy they've got a lot to do. But Mab next door would be like "you work for me next door? Well now you work for me, while you're here you work for me".

Why not take advantage?

Yeah exactly, I mean it's Mab, what other way could she react you know. But she's-Mab is tremendously powerful but she's not powerful on a scale like Uriel is where he's in the parallel realities next door and spreading out and so on.

How do the Mothers compare to Uriel? Are they in all realities or are they in parallel?

They're much closer to Uriel because-well I don't want to talk about that yet I'll put it in the books. But the Mothers are much closer to being Uriel they're essentially nigh-unto being gods on the level with you know like Zeus or the Native American gods or the Hindu gods or something like that, they're kind of on that same scale.

So all the big things that stayed immortal and godly and powerful and have to-

And kind of had to take a step back from all the mortal affairs that were going on as a result. Most of the gods did that they were just sort of "okay we're gonna take a step back, we're not really gonna be involved, we're gonna become professional wrestlers" you know that sort of thing.
.

mab is aware of and communicate with her other selves. So a limited intellectus. And I think I can perhaps see why, it's her connection to the gates. The gates WOULD have its own intellectus just like the island(thinking of woj about how the gates just ARE as far as it's intellegence), and I think would exist on the same sort of scale as angels? Not certain, but neither has Harry ever just tried to know something from a different version of DR, so that is not implicit for the gates to be(is universal the right word?)
Though actually... Comparing the above woj with Morgans in book explanation of intellectus and his limits on an explanation being only relevant to knowing one reality. Perhaps angels are closer to omniscient? You'd have to get the breakdown from an angelic perspective I suppose, if they are just "aware" of things or have such a big conscious mind it can "know" multiple lines of thought on each reality all at once.