Author Topic: dying curses  (Read 6073 times)

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2023, 03:55:16 PM »
Still doesn't work, because it was Murphy's own choices that led to her death, not a curse.
I don't know what book you're reading but lemme know?
1 HOW does it not work based on
2 Murphy's choices leading to her death means what here?
3and how does that make for not a curse?
Far as I know the blame chose to attack Harry, placing him in exactly the wrong spot to be hit by a frozen turkey. If he chose this is entirely subjective based on some far out there assignment of what constitutes free will sure?
But it was still a curse that did it. So I really fail to see whatever it is your getting at beyond,"i disagree and Harry will outlive most mortals."

Offline Mira

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2023, 10:12:36 AM »
Quote
1 HOW does it not work based on
2 Murphy's choices leading to her death means what here?
3and how does that make for not a curse?
Far as I know the blame chose to attack Harry, placing him in exactly the wrong spot to be hit by a frozen turkey. If he chose this is entirely subjective based on some far out there assignment of what constitutes free will sure?
But it was still a curse that did it. So I really fail to see whatever it is your getting at beyond,"i disagree and Harry will outlive most mortals."
  Murphy was injured, right? Harry asked her to stay at Mac's place, right?She chose to leave. Oh back up a minute, she chose to remove her cast and go with him in the first place, right? She chose to leave those who Harry asked her to protect at Mac's place to go after Harry, right?  ALL were her choices, what happened to her afterward is a result of her choices.. She chose to go into battle, in battle sometimes death happens, she understood that, her choice to go.  Yes, her death was stupid and needless, but being in that spot to die was her own doing, not the result of some death curse on Harry.

Point of fact for Harry and his wizard peers, they will outlive most of their vanilla mortal friends and lovers. If they meet them at the age that Harry met Murphy.. Do the math, vanilla humans at best live to be a hundred if all goes well, wizards on the other hand live for 300 years or more.. Murphy's death is no more part of the "die alone" curse than you can say Eb is under the same curse because his wife is dead. 

Also I suggest you reread what Malcolm told Harry in his vision, "we all die alone.." In other words though the words of Cassius sound bad, it wasn't a real curse.   
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 05:55:55 PM by Mira »

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2023, 12:04:35 AM »
  Murphy was injured, right? Harry asked her to stay at Mac's place, right?She chose to leave. Oh back up a minute, she chose to remove her cast and go with him in the first place, right? She chose to leave those who Harry asked her to protect at Mac's place to go after Harry, right?  ALL were her choices, what happened to her afterward is a result of her choices.. She chose to go into battle, in battle sometimes death happens, she understood that, her choice to go.  Yes, her death was stupid and needless, but being in that spot to die was her own doing, not the result of some death curse on Harry.
yes that's what I thought you'd say. But making an unlimited number of choices that leads you to someone else MURDERING you is never going to track as a choice. Hence murder and not "assistance leaving"
So Na. Unless you wanna argue the family who loaded up chose to get hit by the drunk driver because they knew drunk drivers drive on roads let's not, because I didn't want to to begin with. (I think you're confabulating free will, choice and someone actually cheating in the DF into one thing here, just because nobody outright cheated doesn't make it her choice)
Quote
Point of fact for Harry and his wizard peers, they will outlive most of their vanilla mortal friends and lovers. If they meet them at the age that Harry met Murphy.. Do the math, vanilla humans at best live to be a hundred if all goes well, wizards on the other hand live for 300 years or more.. Murphy's death is no more part of the "die alone" curse than you can say Eb is under the same curse because his wife is dead.
the fact that Murphy WILL die has no actual bearing on when and how she died. Your mashing lines of logic together that don't fit.
A. Murphy is mortal and WILL pass in time
Has nothing to do with
B. How and why Murphy died here in.
And then you actually point out a similar logical fallacy about EB? Saying Murphy WILL die has no bearing on HOW she did die.

Quote
Also I suggest you reread what Malcolm told Harry in his vision, "we all die alone.." In other words though the words of Cassius sound bad, it wasn't a real curse.
okay, it's fine to have that opinion if you want. I'd ask that you please use a bit more thought into how you respond to other people's ideas please. Multiple times now you've told me this is wrong based on opinion, heresay and a bad logical grouping. If you wanna discuss the merits of a theory, cool 👍 this doesn't feel like that.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 12:08:00 AM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2023, 12:22:50 AM »
At one point in the narrative Harry will be dyeing something for Maggie and realise that there is no one else in the room with him and that Cassius really, really was a poor excuse for a wizard for whom English was not his first language.

Offline Dina

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2023, 12:43:41 AM »
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Mira

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2023, 04:08:18 PM »
  Here is the quote from Dead Beat where Malcolm and Harry talk about "death curse" that supposedly Cassius put on Harry.

page 420, Dead Beat, paperback  Bolding mine.
Harry is looking down at what it says on the grave stone Bianca had given him.
Quote
He died doing the right thing," my father read.
"Maybe I should change it to,'he died alone,'I said.
 My father smiled a little."Thinking of the death curse, eh?"
"Yeah. 'Die alone.'" I stared down at my open grave. "Maybe it means I'll never be with anybody. Have love. A wife. Children. No one who is really close.  Really there.
"Maybe," my father said. "What do you think?"
"I think that's what he wanted to do to me. I think I'm so tired that I'm hallucinating.  And that I hurt. And that I want someone to be holding my hand when it is my time.  I don't want to do it alone."
"Harry," my father said, and his voice was very gentle, "can I tell you something?"

"Sure."
He walked around the grave and put his hand on my shoulder.
"Son.  Everyone dies alone.  that's what it is.  It is a door.  It's one person wide.  When you go through it, you do it alone."His fingers squeezed me tight. "But it doesn't mean you've got to be alone before you go through that door.  And believe me, you aren't alone on the other side."
I frowned and looked up at my father's image, searching his eyes."Really?"
He smiled and drew his finger in an X on his chest. "Cross my heart."
I looked away from him.  "I did things.  I made a deal I shouldn't have made. I crossed a line."
"I know," he said. "It only means what you decide it means."
I looked up at him. "What?"
"Harry, life isn't simple.  There is such a thing as  black and white. Right and wrong.  But when you are in the thick of things it is hard to tell."

So what was Malcolm trying to tell Harry exactly?  Death is a door, one one person goes through it at a time, alone... But that doesn't mean he has to be alone before he goes through.. Does that mean when he actually dies, he has to have someone with him holding his hand? Or does it mean being loved as we go through life? Harry has had love, not just Murphy, but Susan, he is loved, he has children, he has friends, he has never been truly alone in life no matter how many loved ones he has lost. Malcolm also tells him he won't be alone on the other side as we saw in Ghost Story, indeed not.. Malcolm finally tells him the curse only means, "what he thinks it means." In other words Harry can get all worked up and be afraid about something that really is only in his own head and not a real curse..  Yes, sad and tragic that Murphy and Susan died, but he knew their love, so is it a real curse because they died first?

 I will leave you with a line from a love song from an old movie called, "The Rains Came."  It talks about dying, then finishes with, "but in your heart my love has found a home, and it can never die..." In Harry's heart Murphy's love has found a home, it can never die, thus he will not die alone...

Cassius wasn't the brightest penny in the purse, he didn't think things through, he actually thought that Nic would take him back and give him another coin after he gave his up in surrender to Michael and Sanya.  He was now swiftly growing old, unlike Harry, he had no loved ones in his life, he was going to die soon, and very much alone... So he cursed Harry with his own pain, the thought of dying alone.  But in Harry's case, as long as he is loved, he will never truly be alone.  What under scores this is what Harry says on the top of the next page.. 421 Dead Beat paper back version.
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"As long as you believe you are responsible for your choices, you still are. You've got a good heart son.  Listen to it.
He vanished into the night, and somewhere in the city, bells started tolling midnight.
I stared at my waiting grave, and I suddenly realized that death was not really my biggest worry.
He died doing the right thing.
God, I hope so.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 04:12:46 PM by Mira »

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2023, 06:59:50 AM »
Random thought on the death curse theory, Harry also got shot right before he hooked with Murphy.
Gotta wonder, how insidious do they get? Cassius was a many headed snake wasn't he? Just like his multiple snake manifestation? I expect his magic might be slithering and worming it's way through it's actions and setting up odd coincidences to achieve it's aims instead of direct force. It'd be much better efficiency.

Offline Mira

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2023, 03:20:09 PM »
Random thought on the death curse theory, Harry also got shot right before he hooked with Murphy.
Gotta wonder, how insidious do they get? Cassius was a many headed snake wasn't he? Just like his multiple snake manifestation? I expect his magic might be slithering and worming it's way through it's actions and setting up odd coincidences to achieve it's aims instead of direct force. It'd be much better efficiency.

  Remember Harry also heard the curse in his head as he fell into the water, but he wasn't alone, he fell into Mab's waiting arms.  Nor was he alone when his spirit did it's walk about, so what Malcolm told him still holds true.  What Malcolm told him came from Malcolm's experience of dying.. While the curse of Cassius sounds terrible, but since Cassius had had no real experience of being dead or dying, it just sounds worse than it really is... And in fact is no curse at all.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2023, 05:55:28 PM »
  Remember Harry also heard the curse in his head as he fell into the water, but he wasn't alone, he fell into Mab's waiting arms.  Nor was he alone when his spirit did it's walk about, so what Malcolm told him still holds true.  What Malcolm told him came from Malcolm's experience of dying.. While the curse of Cassius sounds terrible, but since Cassius had had no real experience of being dead or dying, it just sounds worse than it really is... And in fact is no curse at all.
nor did he actually die so 🤷‍♂️  must be that's not the right interpretation of the curse.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2023, 06:23:22 PM »
Harry’s simple solution become immortal.

Offline Mira

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2023, 10:23:31 AM »
nor did he actually die so 🤷‍♂️  must be that's not the right interpretation of the curse.

But he did hear it, and as Mab said herself, "death is a spectrum.." Harry died, but no so far on that road that he couldn't return. 

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2023, 11:29:36 AM »
But he did hear it, and as Mab said herself, "death is a spectrum.." Harry died, but no so far on that road that he couldn't return.
that's a matter of opinion a few in book characters disagree with, including butters. It's actually implied that's his subconscious mocking him. Not actually Cassius.
And so we're clear, how is this
  Remember Harry also heard the curse in his head as he fell into the water, but he wasn't alone, he fell into Mab's waiting arms.  Nor was he alone when his spirit did it's walk about, so what Malcolm told him still holds true.  What Malcolm told him came from Malcolm's experience of dying.. While the curse of Cassius sounds terrible, but since Cassius had had no real experience of being dead or dying, it just sounds worse than it really is... And in fact is no curse at all.
actually a linear reply to this
Random thought on the death curse theory, Harry also got shot right before he hooked with Murphy.
Gotta wonder, how insidious do they get? Cassius was a many headed snake wasn't he? Just like his multiple snake manifestation? I expect his magic might be slithering and worming it's way through it's actions and setting up odd coincidences to achieve it's aims instead of direct force. It'd be much better efficiency.
instead of just taking the longer route to tell me I'm wrong on an unrelated thread of wether or not it's a curse, if it's that bad, ect. This is a random thought on a pre-existing theory not an invitation to expound upon your differences..? Seems to me your assertion he wasn't alone is proof enough that either A that's not part of the curse despite hearing it or B 🤷‍♂️ we obviously don't know exactly what the curse is doing outright and should discuss it further
Now then let's see, Mira
how if he wasn't alone was his death in any way related to the discharging of the curse? I'd he's meant to be alone after death then how could Uriel have arrived? Is the difference in power so great weak snakebite could actually waylay a divine agent but CAN'T stop Uriel? Is Cassius as strong as an angel without his fallen? Yet somehow can't lay out a proper curse? If it was no curse at all what EXACTLY did Harry feel slither over him when Cassius released his non-curse? How can you know Cassius had no real experience with death or dying? If you don't know the curses intentions, how can if sound worse than it really is, is not the death of all possible significant others bad enough?
How come Cassius wasted his entire death curse on a non curse with no intentions behind it whatsoever? *Steeples fingers* I'm tired of being on the defensive because I want to speak my thoughts. I've always had questions, now I'll start asking for answers.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 11:48:35 AM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2023, 12:42:56 PM »
Uriel has a particular interest in Harry and all that is required is to delay an Angel of death for Harry’s soul to be waylaid, a mortal curse giving a way in for the infernal from the NeverNever, it’s the same as whistling in an Outsider.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2023, 03:23:01 PM »
Uriel has a particular interest in Harry and all that is required is to delay an Angel of death for Harry’s soul to be waylaid, a mortal curse giving a way in for the infernal from the NeverNever, it’s the same as whistling in an Outsider.
sure. Except the counter argument here is Cassius is too weak and stupid to do better than waste his curse on something that wasn't a curse. That he gathered up all this energy and life left to live and poofed it into nothingness contrary to Einstein being as relevant as his theory in the DF.
Though for a more sensical argument not predicated on being smug about it.
Is the difference in power scale between an angel of death and Uriel so great that Cassius can be reasonably strong enough to waylay one but not catch the other in the same net?

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: dying curses
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2023, 04:28:47 PM »
Cassius had been communing with a Fallen for Centuries, for all we know he had planned this in advance with a Fallen, in which case a Fallen Angel would equal an Angel of Death with surprise and mortal magic to sway the match, but Uriel is as powerful as Lucifer, his limitations prevent him from acting unless a Fallen is in play which Cassius did do.

Frankly Cassius didn’t think this out, he is hell bound and had he managed to have Harry shanghaied, who do you think he would have been assigned as a roommate?

An eternity of Harry cracking wise on his ass would make eternity especially long for Cassius. Uriel’s saved both Harry and Cassius.