dying curses

[Dina]

Someone else thinks that this plot device is wasted? In the first books it was mentioned a lot but then I think only the "die alone" and his effect in Harry's mind has been relevant. It seems a shame to not exploit it better.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I think it represents that death curses, entropy curses, the Barabas curse and prophecy may have problems taking hold of Harry, each of these create pre-destination, creating a fixed point for Harry’s death, the opposite of free will, and it maybe related to his Starborn status.

The same would apply to Drakul, and to Listen. Drakul killed several wizards in BG and may have been hit by a couple of Death Curses before he even took on Harry.

[The_Sibelis]

What do you mean? Cassius' curse? 🤷‍♂️ How do we know it isn't what made Rudy's gun misfire? It happened literally the same day Murphy hooked up with Dresden after all. That's a pretty big coincidence to try to ignore. I'm certain we'll see more with Lara too.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I believe Uriel had words with Harry about that Death Curse indicating it had been discharged.

[Mira]

  I think death curses are tricky, for one thing I think you have to be aware that you are dying to throw one.  If death happens quickly and unexpectedly, there isn't time to throw it.  Harry did "die alone" but he fell into icy cold water into Mab's arms and was revived, end of curse.  Also as Malcolm pointed out to him, everyone dies alone, so the curse wasn't much of a curse.  In the case of Margaret, she knew sooner or later Lord Raith would murder her, so she had one prepared and apparently had time, and I imagine it took merely a word or thought, or even her dying breath that triggered it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Margaret linked her death curse to Thomas and Harry’s blood (to which she was also linked) it was constantly renewing. Cassius curse was one and done, as was Simon’s.

Indeed we can project that Peabody undermined the brute squad to get the info to access Simon’s fortress, Peabody passed them to Cowl who passed them to the Eeb’s and the Red King’s faction. The Eeb’s as usual led from behind and survived that death curse, allowing it to play out against everyone ahead of them.

[The_Sibelis]

I believe Uriel had words with Harry about that Death Curse indicating it had been discharged.

we have woj answering that we'll see in future books on if it was discharged in  Harry dying once. Our interpretation of the curse has less to do with it than his actual intentions. He'd been denied what was basically his closest partner in life, his coconspirator. I think he intended that Harry shouldn't have someone like that, like a fallen, a lover, ECT. And that like Cassius, he should 'die alone', divested of anyone truly close. More to say on death curses later..

[Mira]

we have woj answering that we'll see in future books on if it was discharged in  Harry dying once. Our interpretation of the curse has less to do with it than his actual intentions. He'd been denied what was basically his closest partner in life, his coconspirator. I think he intended that Harry shouldn't have someone like that, like a fallen, a lover, ECT. And that like Cassius, he should 'die alone', divested of anyone truly close. More to say on death curses later..

Yes, but unless he alienates Maggie, Michael, Butters, Sanya, and if he can figure out a way to help Thomas, he won't be alone... Or three of the above mentioned might be dead because being a Wizard Harry will outlive them... Oh forgot to mention Molly as well, Harry will never be really alone, but as a starborn, his destiny may set him apart from everyone.  Still, dying alone is no curse, your loved ones even if they are there can only watch, they cannot go through the process with you. Even if there is a reason you die at the same time as others.... Death is individual to each of us, and yes, I've had loved ones who did chose to die alone..

[The_Sibelis]

Unless you spectacularly equate having friends with being married or having a life partner, not really the same.

[Dina]

Me too, Mira. And I agree "alone" is relative. My grand=grand-mother died in her sleep, in her bed, with my grand mother in another bed in the same room. Did she die alone? My grandmother and my mother died in hospitals, with several people around actively trying to save them. Did they die alone? The three of them had loving family and friends. In my personal opinion, they died alone in the sense that Mira says, but probably not in the sense Cassius intended. There is a chance that The_Sibelis is right, and Cassius curse was what directed Rudy's bullet to Murphy. On the other hand, I think it would be weird that Cassius was able to do such a powerful curse, that could affect the physical world many years (and many sunsets) after his own demise, without having anything powering it (like Maggie's blood). So...I don't know. And I would like to have an answer about that.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I would point out that Father Forthill in Ghost Story was on the verge of being shepherded to his afterlife by an angel of death. He was not alone.

Cassius was a former Denarian, as such he should know about Angels of death. Was this Cassius intent? To try to prevent Harry from from being shepherded to his afterlife so that others may hijack his spirit to take it elsewhere, as was feared for Forthill?

As I point out Harry is extremely resistant to anything which preordains his death, but afterwards? Unfortunately for Cassius though Harry has an Archangel watching over him.

Cassius wasn’t trying to kill Harry, he was trying to damn him,

[Mira]

Me too, Mira. And I agree "alone" is relative. My grand=grand-mother died in her sleep, in her bed, with my grand mother in another bed in the same room. Did she die alone? My grandmother and my mother died in hospitals, with several people around actively trying to save them. Did they die alone? The three of them had loving family and friends. In my personal opinion, they died alone in the sense that Mira says, but probably not in the sense Cassius intended. There is a chance that The_Sibelis is right, and Cassius curse was what directed Rudy's bullet to Murphy. On the other hand, I think it would be weird that Cassius was able to do such a powerful curse, that could affect the physical world many years (and many sunsets) after his own demise, without having anything powering it (like Maggie's blood). So...I don't know. And I would like to have an answer about that.

Yes, I had a dear friend who told her beloved brother to leave her bedside because she wanted to die alone, and she did a few hours later.  My husband died alone, the Hospice nurse said it was very common for patients to die between shifts when there is no one in the room. The Murphy thing doesn't quite work for me either, because in the final battle as one of Odin's fighters who is to say she won't be with Harry when his time comes? Or yes, Harry loved Murphy, but more than Molly or Maggie? I still think it was more something Cassius said to frighten than a real curse... Or there is this also, Cassius never was the brightest penny and most likely wasted his death curse on something that really isn't a curse.

[The_Sibelis]

Me too, Mira. And I agree "alone" is relative. My grand=grand-mother died in her sleep, in her bed, with my grand mother in another bed in the same room. Did she die alone? My grandmother and my mother died in hospitals, with several people around actively trying to save them. Did they die alone? The three of them had loving family and friends. In my personal opinion, they died alone in the sense that Mira says, but probably not in the sense Cassius intended. There is a chance that The_Sibelis is right, and Cassius curse was what directed Rudy's bullet to Murphy. On the other hand, I think it would be weird that Cassius was able to do such a powerful curse, that could affect the physical world many years (and many sunsets) after his own demise, without having anything powering it (like Maggie's blood). So...I don't know. And I would like to have an answer about that.

alright so on this. didn't Harry feel it 'hook' or 'sink' in? I always figured it was carried within him, classic curse style. Could be Harry's actively feeding the curse(Cassius was WEAK, not dumb. He had the same fallen that turned Marcone into a sorcery powerhouse in less than a decade, and it was all from knowledge) or it's just not spent itself yet. Death curses consume... Well everything? Depending on the nuances of this it could hold the power of every decision or action they could ever make, the soul fire itself cast into it?🤷‍♂️ Either way, one life has a lot of power in it... And I confess another ironic possibility. If it did kill Murphy, was Murphy ergo sacrificed to the curse giving it greater energy? I think Cassius laid out a classic and proper curse, just with in the moment intentions behind it. Could be gaining power instead of losing it. Attaching it to a life is just one way we do know of that can empower it. An this leads to another even more ironic possibility. Curse or no curse, it was Harry's own magical aura reacting with the gun that caused the misfire.
An honestly, if we ask what would hurt Harry the most? That's the Occam answer.

[Mira]

alright so on this. didn't Harry feel it 'hook' or 'sink' in? I always figured it was carried within him, classic curse style. Could be Harry's actively feeding the curse(Cassius was WEAK, not dumb. He had the same fallen that turned Marcone into a sorcery powerhouse in less than a decade, and it was all from knowledge) or it's just not spent itself yet. Death curses consume... Well everything? Depending on the nuances of this it could hold the power of every decision or action they could ever make, the soul fire itself cast into it?🤷‍♂️ Either way, one life has a lot of power in it... And I confess another ironic possibility. If it did kill Murphy, was Murphy ergo sacrificed to the curse giving it greater energy? I think Cassius laid out a classic and proper curse, just with in the moment intentions behind it. Could be gaining power instead of losing it. Attaching it to a life is just one way we do know of that can empower it. An this leads to another even more ironic possibility. Curse or no curse, it was Harry's own magical aura reacting with the gun that caused the misfire.
An honestly, if we ask what would hurt Harry the most? That's the Occam answer.

Still doesn't work, because it was Murphy's own choices that led to her death, not a curse.  Anyway, as a vanilla mortal, she would have died with in the next fifty years, before Harry anyway unless he was killed somehow..

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Still doesn't work, because it was Murphy's own choices that led to her death, not a curse.  Anyway, as a vanilla mortal, she would have died with in the next fifty years, before Harry anyway unless he was killed somehow..

Quite a total waste of a perfectly good death curse. Harry would have outlived all of his vanilla paramours. This is why I don’t think the curse was meant to kill, it was to make Harry suffer, which is why I think it was designed to block the Angel of Death from protecting Harry. Now the Angel showed up to protect Forthill in Ghost Story when there was the potential for his death. The same must have applied during Changes with Harry, but Uriel stepped up protecting Harry’s spirit from being collected by the Fallen, and that WAS something within Uriel’s capacity to act to work against the Fallen in the mortal world I think this is why we get the entire Angel of Death/Forthill sub-plot and that the curse is now fully discharged.

Thinking about it, without the Death Curse, Uriel wouldn’t have been able to help Harry in Ghost Story at all.