Author Topic: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)  (Read 3047 times)

Offline Melriken

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I was reading some older threads and came across a theory that Marcone is being set up as a King Arthur figure to match Harry's Merlin figure.  Not that Harry is Merlin, but that he is filling the shoes in this age that Merlin filled in the last one and that Marcone is filling the shoes filled by Arthur before.  I googled it and my Google Fu is usually quite good, but I can only find references to it (things like "That fits well with my Marcone is Arthur theory, and that would make Hendricks Lancelot." or "I don't like your theory because I think Jim is setting up Marcone to be Arthur and your theory conflicts with it.").

Was this a discussed theory? Does anyone have a topic that dug into it at all?

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2023, 11:03:44 PM »
That's probably my theory. I've come and gone under a few names. Sadly I felt my previous works were obviously not up to par organizationally(which hey I'm autistic, it LOOKED organized to ME at least 😂🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️) so idk that any specific thread outlining it exists.
I have built, a rather large interlaced metatheory based around this and other details but If you have any specific questions however I'm sure they'd jog my memory on whatever info you're looking for.
FYI, one most excellent connection is the woj about how the codex alera came about from a bet. Jim mentions the writers board he was in had two distinct ways of thinking they'd been butting heads over. One being a story had to be completely original to be good, the other that a retelling of a classic story with new elements makes a good story. Jim belonged to the latter. And while the codex is him winning that bet, the Dresden Files with it's cyclic, semi repeating nature(touched upon in woj on Rashid being "the last version of Dresden, and he didn't enjoy it very much") drawing elements formost under the Arthurian canon and expanding pretty much through any mythology Jim finds himself capable of, is him winning the whole dam board 👏
The bare bones theory itself can and does actually predict some events in the DF based on previous cycles in fact.

Offline Melriken

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2023, 03:52:22 PM »
That's probably my theory. I've come and gone under a few names. Sadly I felt my previous works were obviously not up to par organizationally (which hey I'm autistic, it LOOKED organized to ME at least 😂🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️) so idk that any specific thread outlining it exists.
I have built, a rather large interlaced metatheory based around this and other details but If you have any specific questions however I'm sure they'd jog my memory on whatever info you're looking for.

I am not looking for anything specific, just found the theory interesting and wanted to read about who maps to who and how that informs their relationships and what that means going forward.
The bare bones theory itself can and does actually predict some events in the DF based on previous cycles in fact.
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was looking for.

I will happily put up with unorganized heap if you have it...

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2023, 05:13:43 PM »
And here.. we.. go. Alright, gonna skim over a few topics that make up the principle theory's and ideas that started this, them dive into who's who, and why I think so.
-the conservation of history. So, following the metaphor of time is a river. People, things, event's carve themselves into the bedrock of time. Making them more likely to happen or form together in similar ways. Reformations of the same people or close amalgamations of them.
-the gyre, as ascribed to Yeats poem 'The Second Coming'. Describes time as a repeating cylinder that folds in on itself. Usually 2000 years. This is where I think certain things take their turn back and forth, resulting in inverted variations of what we know. For instance, Nico is Harry's precise inversion right down to wearing the exact same outfit in opposite colors when they first meet. Every decision he's ever made is in direct opposition to Harry's choices. He squandered his power and importance(🤷‍♂️ he's a particularly short guy) by breaking his word upon it, though he obviously has great skill with magic rituals. Harry kills the mother of his child, with her full support to save his daughter. Nico later kills his daughter in spite of her mother. In direct parallel.
The gyre is partially confirmed, at least in that things repeat, in the woj Rashid played Dresden's part,"the last time. And he didn't enjoy it very much."
With the above metaphor and variables in mind, there is some overlap of who does what despite whose most likely attributed to having done so, but I find these are mostly taken up(intentionally) by at least semi supernatural beings. Vaderrung and Gard largely occupying the roles Merlin and Guin would have taken up in his Arthurian kingdom. Gard even gets into a relationship with Hendrix, my presumed Lancelot.(random theory, his paper was about Arthurian mythology lol)
-one other thing is a clear but uncertain connection to starborn. The universe itself remembers. I think this is the riverbed that times flowing through. And indeed just the starborn cycle alone would give credence to that. The water might slosh around but it keeps following the same paths. I'm thinking the starborn are capable of being remembered. Of digging furrows into it, changing the flow entirely.. or, stopping it completely.
-in line with starborn there are, and I am uncertain of the number precisely, a number of beings who are Primes. Who themselves keep repeating because they had such a huge impact already. I've measured this anywhere from 3-4 to conceivably 8, in line with the number of heavenly bodies visible to the naked eye in Greco mythology (5 of those still being more important iirc)
Anyway. Here some of whom I've identified and why. Probably won't remember everything all at once..
Harry- the Rising Star, like that one Lucifer. Except this is the inverse of so he's literally Rising instead. -Merlin/Odin, I put these together because classically the similarities run pretty deep and in story I find it likely ones Cycle directly followed the others. With Merlin more or less becoming Odin, becoming Merlin. Bootstrap paradox solved by going backwards through countless cycles into whatever cosmic paradox made time exist. Odin was a lean runner, Harry ran in his younger days for exercise. Odin had a beefy winter mantle that changes his usual appearance, Harry's beefed up as the WK to superhuman levels. Magic spears, check. Swords? Pretty sure Harry's getting a sword for fighting back against the warden's, one of theirs. Same one he's holding on TC, which is not his. Army of 'Elves?' Check?  Has almost lost an eye multiple times and I think will still, sometime in the time travel book. When GK found him in hanging in the tree I think that's also part and parcel of why he laughed so much. He recognized the direct parallel, knew about the cycle from first hand experience, and found it hilarious that that's how that manifested for him. Harry's connection to DR of course is in parallel to Merlin making it, and perhaps Harry needing to unmake it.
Also despite not going in with Marcone Early on, still helped him legitimatize his 'kingdom'. -Horseman Death
Thomas- Doubting Thomas, one of the disciples sometimes confused with Judas. I think the three are mushed together into one character here. Thomas did indeed betray, but by force and only for love. In the last turn, I'd say his archetype was more likely that of TWC with Harry being Judas/Doubting Thomas. What this says for Nico's character is suspicion he's not only Judas as some already theorized, but the brother of TWC himself perhaps. Doubting Thomas is I think exactly where he gets his name from, an inside Joke.-horseman potential
Murphy-Nemesis, the Judge -Guinevere -Lilith. Guinevere is pretty easy. She deals with Marcone and holds sway over the side of the kingdom he does not, the lawful side. The Once, and Future Queen. Interestingly I think she's also a joke name, from Murphy's law. Complex turn of theories on magic and Nemesis the Greek goddess(and Nortia) make me suspect the side effects of errant magic are entirely based on "bad luck", with the previous effects of spoiling milk classically being directly attributed to the idea leaving out milk collecting the negative Mojo of 'bad luck spirits' turned it sour. As 'the Judge'(or perhaps she's now the executioner in this incarnation lol) she's the one who usually actually kills bad mortals, or those abusing/abused by magic within Dresden's story. She passes the verdict, on Macfinn, on agent Denton(an amalgam of two face btw, Harry's Batman. Don't get me started 🤦‍♂️😂 ) Aurora thematically couldn't stand to her as a mortal, big guy gruff backed down, ect. She's the Law, or was.. without her influence the first thing Harry does is try to kill someone with defensive magic no less. -Horseman War? I'm going to go into some backstory on this, but not the explanation. There's a Anita Blake(don't remember the name, it's the one with the zombie smex, and I lost interest after that) but Anita and Edward pick up new nicknames, War and Death, despite ALREADY having very specific and known nicknames already. This i think is a residual joke(from when they were still getting along, if they apparently aren't now) in her intentionally comparing them to Harry's and Murphy's incarnations in the DF. Edward gets a lot of wintery imagery in his descriptions in that book and a few other things keyed me to the comparison more so than usual. In the following book well. If I said someone lit the building on fire before calling up a bunch of dead victims of vampires to enact their living vengeance, you'd assume I'm talking about GP.. but you'd be wrong lol.
Elaine-an amalgam of Elaine,Vivian/Emua(I totally misspelled that 😩 ) and possibly some of Morgana thrown in the mix. she's already held him against his will twice now iirc, no way a third time isn't coming. -possibly a horsemen?
Hendrix-Lancelot, and pretty much any warrior archetype might follow. He wields a certain sword giving him heritage(you can probably find that thread somewhere). He's Marcones strongest Knight, fell in love with the 'queen' and it got him killed.
Ms Beckett-Morgana, just for the twisted relationship with Marcone and wanting to take him down despite of everything else.
Fitz- Royal Bastard by some definitions, Mordred. just for his name. Interestingly tho, this inversion should mean he's going to his deed's with nobility and honor? Not necessarily related to Marcone of course, but certainly he's going to have an interesting heritage if we get it, in both sides I suspect.
Mavra-think she's actually the original Morgana. Purely for the Outfit timeline. It's what she turned wearing. She wants her 'mortality' back, or to otherwise stop being what she's stuck as.
Molly-Merlins apprentice, she's also more or less Mab. maeves appearance in early books directly changes based on choices molly makes to her own appearance. The way she fought the mental battle in GS is directly in parallel to how Mab fought in BG. They have the same magical talents, ect.-one of the Horsemen, Famine?
Marcone - Arthur - Horseman Conquest -EK
The dual beliefs shown in FM, a circle of trees for dirty business in Celtic styling(anecdotal, but throwing a body and the weapon used to end it into a body of water is a Celtic act of worship. The Mob pays service wether they realize it or not 😂 ) and a church moved there brick by brick. He'd make a good king. His MM counterpart should have Excalibur. He had 'summer hunter' green eyes in his youth, ect.
I'm sure there more. But I'm spent atm 🤷‍♂️
Oops so Eb- Kronos?( The one killed by his grandson. I always forget which is which offhand) Only in this variation he's going to let him intentionally. He's already killed Harry accidentally twice by my count. Once when Harry was a doppleganger and I think, in the original timeline before the corner hounds... I think he was the time traveler that got their attention and then realized that changed the past all by itself. Their appearance stopped an escalation to a fight. But WHY when we've seen potential TT before did they appear here? Because Harry actually died, and Eb wasn't going to do anything subtle about it, staying within the laws of known paradox. As opposed to other times, this was the black staff using the black staff to violate time itself to change what happened not to nudge a car or indirectly work. The corner hounds only manifest because of this, but if they hadn't it would have happened so time smoothed its own wrinkle.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2023, 07:22:49 AM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2023, 12:41:50 PM »
Nah, Harry learns from Marcone’s example of the need for networking and a political power base as telegraphed in BG,

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2023, 12:48:58 PM »
Speaking of, it was accurately predicted Harry would take the BFS headquarters from Marcone based on Merlin doing the same to Edinburg from a fey lord. Through a nasty trick no less. I'm not the only one who called that one lol.

Offline Melriken

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2023, 06:42:21 PM »
And here.. we.. go.
going to read it now, but wanted to start with...

Thanks.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2023, 08:23:28 PM »
Speaking of, it was accurately predicted Harry would take the BFS headquarters from Marcone based on Merlin doing the same to Edinburg from a fey lord. Through a nasty trick no less. I'm not the only one who called that one lol.

Actually I predicted it from an offhand comment of Jim from a Q&A asked what he would do with his new wealth Jim said “buy a basketball hoop for the hall”

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2023, 08:39:27 PM »
Actually I predicted it from an offhand comment of Jim from a Q&A asked what he would do with his new wealth Jim said “buy a basketball hoop for the hall”
🥱 you know, all I've seen you do recently is try to troll threads with spam posts.
That's sad, might the conspiracy theorist have any ahh conspiracy theories on his conspiracy list?(insert Ian Malcolm gif here)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2023, 10:59:19 PM »
I note you don’t deny the truth of my statement.

Besides your theory conflates two separate beings Marcone and Namshiel, the former owned the Castle, the latter is the magic teacher. Besides the plot  the Castle stood on was Harry’s home BEFORE Marcone put the Castle on it, and his lab still stands, so you have it round the wrong way, Marcone cheated Harry out of his home, his fortress. Their roles are thus reversed.

Merlin was a Shapeshifter par excellence, now which Shapeshifter has actually offered to tutor Harry? Not Marcone.

If you want to look at Arthurian analogues, Marcone is a much better fit for Mordred,  Harry did in fact create the Baron Marcone we know, Even Hand shows how much input Harry had. I do not expect Marcone to say to Harry “Harry, I am your son”



Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2023, 11:57:49 PM »
I note you don’t deny the truth of my statement.
no need to refute nonsense..
Quote
Besides your theory conflates two separate beings Marcone and Namshiel, the former owned the Castle, the latter is the magic teacher. Besides the plot  the Castle stood on was Harry’s home BEFORE Marcone put the Castle on it, and his lab still stands, so you have it round the wrong way, Marcone cheated Harry out of his home, his fortress. Their roles are thus reversed.

Merlin was a Shapeshifter par excellence, now which Shapeshifter has actually offered to tutor Harry? Not Marcone.
I don't believe you're unintelligent. I do believe you think because you have a different mask than I've delt with before I won't recognize you. However, completely non sequitur that.
Quote
If you want to look at Arthurian analogues, Marcone is a much better fit for Mordred,  Harry did in fact create the Baron Marcone we know, Even Hand shows how much input Harry had. I do not expect Marcone to say to Harry “Harry, I am your son”
way to jumble together a bunch of entirely disparate statements. Do behave. I've not seen griff go voice of God on anyone. But it'd be a shame to lose Eldest Gruff again 😉

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2023, 08:55:56 AM »
Based entirely upon a searchable WOJ and posted to a thread on this forum, so definitely not nonsense.

I would point out Edinburgh has only been used as the White Council HQ for 500 years (start of Chapter 14 Turn Coat) so was not won by the OG Merlin destroying that particular theory. That time period would roughly overlap with the historical lifetime of Dr John Dee, Court Wizard to Elizabeth I. It may be for that gamble (or more mundane political reasons) that Dee ended up hiding out in Demonreach and is the British Prisoner. WOJ has it that Mab is extremely cautious whilst in Great Britain in respect of its Monarch, Dees work?

Getting someone like Dee out of Demonreach would be interesting, he is close enough in time to modern wizards to have a lot of pertinent information, yet too old for any current Wizard (except the Gatekeeper) to have known personally. Turn Coat also sees the introduction of Demonreach so Jim would have had that plot thread in mind when seeding that particular bit of information, and he has deliberately kept the anonymity of the British Prisoner, presumably as it is a name which is recognisable. Dee certainly is to SF and F fans. I would point out Dee’s known life overlapped with the publication of a Midsummers Night Dream (1595- 1596) , which features Titania Queen of the Fairies, perhaps Titania took insult and blamed Dee, Elizabeth could protect him (Mab had a respectful relationship with the British monarchy) but she died in 1603 and Dee ‘dies’ in 1605 or 1606. This theory has the benefit of being consistent with White Council practice, the tried to wipe out the Fae with the later Brothers Grimm and the Black Court with Bram Stoker, this may have given them the idea, and the attempt on the Fae may have made it impolitic to release Dee. In fact the hit on the Fae would overlap with Kemmlers life-time, was he responsible for that when he was still White Council? It’s exactly the type of thing which would interest Kemmler. Kemmler was renegade from at least 1876 (Fistful of Warlocks) and the Grimms Jacob (1785–1863) and Wilhelm (1786–1859) aren’t that far off in time . So Kemmler becomes Warden, finds out from BP about Midsummers Night Dream and uses that to persuade the WC for the hit for his own research. It goes badly and Kemmler is disowned by the WC, going full Warlock, not unlike another Wizard….The WC couldn’t get another Warden until Kemmler relinquished it or died and he would do neither. This would appeal to the Literature Student in Jim.

My other favoured theory for the BP is that it is Bob’s ‘dad’ which is another valid reason for hiding out, but the timing is wrong for both to be correct.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2023, 02:24:14 PM »
I have seen this theory around for a few years, I myself have thought about it myself (whether that was inspired subconsciously by someone else's theory or not I cannot be certain). I don't think I ever wrote any of my thoughts down about it.

Obviously the easy links are those Jim has hinted at for a number of years. Harry has many obvious (and some less obvious) connections and parallels to both the Dresdenverse OG Merlin, and the literary figure.

Jim has both said in multiple interviews and AMAs and Q&As, as well as once or twice in the books, that Marcone would have made a good feudal lord or king. Which seems true enough I suppose, given how effectively Marcone rules his territory.

But I think it's important to examine the differences too.

Marcone is primarily a lawful evil character. He works within his rules, but he commits many morally evil acts. This would rule him out (at least for the time being) from being a "good" king, and Arthur is supposed to be the Western ideal of a "good king". Arthur of course makes many mistakes during his tenure, but ultimately is a lawful good character.

Furthermore, Marcone is a Denarian now, which while not ruling him out forever from holding a Sword of the Cross, it does rule him out for as long as he holds that Coin AND doesn't repent and attempt to atone, just like Sanya is doing. Arthur famously held Excalibur, and we of course know (as of Ghost Story) that Amoracchius (Michael Carpenter's Sword) is also Excalibur by a different name. So Marcone doesn't seem like the right option right now.

I feel Marcone is closer to Vortigern, if anything.
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2023, 04:55:38 PM »
Marcone at the moment has the capacity to be both Arthur or Mordred - coin or sword (same choice as Brian Braddock but inverted).

Never underestimates Jim’s capacity to jam high culture and low culture together, he got a six book deal out of it.

I actually see Marcone (with Michael) as potential candidates to take on Kringle’s Mantle when Odin dies at Ragnarok. That’s a well trod prophecy so Mab and Uriel must have some plan for a back-up..The obvious advantage is the immortality and freeing from a Fallen. Makes you do a double-take at Santa Claus is coming to Town.

You better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
I'm telling you why
… Santa Claus is comin' to town
Santa Claus is comin' to town
Santa Claus is comin' to town
… He's making a list
He's checking it twice
He's gonna find out
Who's naughty or nice
… Santa Claus is comin' to town
Santa Claus is comin' to town
Santa Claus is comin' to town
… He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake
… So you better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
I'm telling you why
… Santa Claus is comin' to town
Santa Claus is comin' to town
Santa Claus is comin' to town
… The kids in girl and boyland
Will have a jubilee
They're gonna build a toyland
All around the Christmas tree
… So you better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
I'm telling you why
… Santa Claus (is comin' to town)
Santa Claus (is comin' to town)
Santa Claus is comin'
Santa Claus is comin'
Santa Claus is comin'
To town”

Besides Jim could not resist having Harry call Marcone a Faerie Godfather, and don’t get on Marcone’s Naughty List.


« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 05:06:21 PM by Conspiracy Theorist »

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Help finding a Theory (Marcone is Arthur to Harry's Merlin)
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2023, 05:20:40 PM »
Quote
ased entirely upon a searchable WOJ and posted to a thread on this forum, so definitely not nonsense.

I would point out Edinburgh has only been used as the White Council HQ for 500 years (start of Chapter 14 Turn Coat) so was not won by the OG Merlin destroying that particular theory.
well let's see. 600 ish years is a KNOWN cycle for a theory predicated on repetition of events. So doesn't effect that. And the woj in question is related to interviews between SG and BG, where as you can use the above to have predicted it far earlier, since GS.  And is indeed something I surmised during a complete reread and break down of the DF, noticing in GP the NN around Harry's apartment is simply a Brighter Chicago. I remember when this came up, and I was happy someone finally caught on to it to. Kudos. However. None of that "destroys" any theory, thats the nonsense. Coming into the idea to destroy or 'win' and then looking for the 'facts' that support your supposition is the exact opposite of the order of theory. For instance, based on your attitude towards me I theorized you might be EG. Based on new information here I find that to be invalidated, EG would've done better. I ask again, what does A realizing the connection based on woj about the basketball court or B Edinburg has presumably only been around for 500 years but is rumored to have been won by Merlin tricking a fae lord have to do with C the theory of repeating history in the DF?