The WK AND SK, AND LADIES power level and purpose

[Tinfoil hat]

Been rereading the books. The Knights are said to hold a lot of power. But we never see then doing anything beyond mortal with winter/summer power. They seem to be wizard level at best. Ditto the Ladies they seem SC level. On the other hand the Knights were have met Slate was a thug. Not brains type.
Then BG was released and Harry uses the banner. The first Knight in centuries to do so. And I started thinking.
In Cold Days Maeve says Harry can kill Mab. Here the thing what if the banner is the Knights true power calling others to your side. My theory is the knights are the field commander of all the fae forces. Wk for winter Sk for summer.
A fully realized Knight can summon forces to his side at will. Including creatures of the fae court he serves. Hold that thought will get back to it.
Remember the Milwaukee incident were the city vanished to hours and the current form of the accords was signed as a result. Once so a WOJ that it was the Knights fighting that triggered it. The Knights involved must have tapped in to their true power unknowingly and started a war between the courts.
Mab and Titania done tell the new Knights they true power. Only a competent knight gets to release what their purpose is.
Meanwhile the Ladies are the 4 star generals meant to give the Knights their orders.

[Melriken]

Meanwhile the Ladies are the 4 star generals meant to give the Knights their orders.

No, you wouldn't have a '4 star general' to give a single individual their orders... Each court would need 4+ knights with banners for the Ladies to be 4-star generals to them.

I think that you are right in that the Mantles weren't meant for the last ~1,000 years, they were meant for what is coming next and they have just been holding power intended for others (Harry and Molley for example) to use.

The real question in my mind is were the Fae Courts split in two to prevent the powers of the Knights, Ladies, Queens, and Crones from being used at all? Divide a power in half, give the two halves to different people and set those people at odds with each other to ensure that the power was used to counter itself and not to an end.  If that is the case then Harry will claim the power of the Summer Knight as well to re-unite the mantel and use it for it's true purpose, and Molley will reunite one of the Fae Queen mantels (both halves of the Lady mantel or both halves of the queen mantel).  Unifying that power so it works to one purpose being required to hold off the Outsiders in the conclusion of this generation of the push.

[The_Sibelis]

That's already been woj'd on. Summer plus winter knight in one body equals cabloowie.
The fae courts were split to create a balance between them allowing no Shadows of them to form. Mabs actually the shadow, given purpose in reality. Best metaphor I can come up with is the ying-yang and 64 trigrams. The more layers there are the harder it is to imbalance.

[Melriken]

That's already been woj'd on. Summer plus winter knight in one body equals cabloowie.
The fae courts were split to create a balance between them allowing no Shadows of them to form. Mabs actually the shadow, given purpose in reality. Best metaphor I can come up with is the ying-yang and 64 trigrams. The more layers there are the harder it is to imbalance.

isn't that the quote that says something vague like "I wouldn't want to be the one around when those merge, ouch" or something that the interviewer takes as boom but the quote doesn't actually say? or am I remmebering wrong?

[The_Sibelis]

isn't that the quote that says something vague like "I wouldn't want to be the one around when those merge, ouch" or something that the interviewer takes as boom but the quote doesn't actually say? or am I remmebering wrong?

matter and antimatter colliding isn't sl that vague.

[Tinfoil hat]

No, you wouldn't have a '4 star general' to give a single individual their orders... Each court would need 4+ knights with banners for the Ladies to be 4-star generals to them.

I think that you are right in that the Mantles weren't meant for the last ~1,000 years, they were meant for what is coming next and they have just been holding power intended for others (Harry and Molley for example) to use.

The real question in my mind is were the Fae Courts split in two to prevent the powers of the Knights, Ladies, Queens, and Crones from being used at all? Divide a power in half, give the two halves to different people and set those people at odds with each other to ensure that the power was used to counter itself and not to an end.  If that is the case then Harry will claim the power of the Summer Knight as well to re-unite the mantel and use it for it's true purpose, and Molley will reunite one of the Fae Queen mantels (both halves of the Lady mantel or both halves of the queen mantel).  Unifying that power so it works to one purpose being required to hold off the Outsiders in the conclusion of this generation of the push.

I don't think the powers can be unified. The OG being in my mind was Death on a Universal scale maybe Entropy itself. Then  to interact with creation in split it self. MW getting something like 50.1 and MS getting 49.9. Wc would explain why the OG MS can retire. While MW has not. The Queens then were split off form the Mothers. Following them the Ladies and the Knights.
The Ladies in my view are meant to be the Knights director  giving the Knights orders and information about when and where to strike. 
The Knights in my theory are meant to introduce new battle strategies and techniques. Teaching the armies that the Lady recruits how to use modern weapons.
In Harry's case teaching winter Fae to use flamethrowers. Imagine harry going ' the gates of reality were were burning it wasn't my fault.
In all seriousness I think the Knights are meant to introduce new innovation to the courts.

[Cthoniq]

I think a lot of the issue with the knight's power is that neither of the current knights are really trying to use their power to the fullest. Harry hasn't really put the mantle through its paces that we've seen. I'll divide the mantle up into three "areas," mental, physical, and magical, and look at what Harry has done with each.

Mental:
Harry sees the winter mantle's mental influence as entirely negative, and works only to suppress it. This makes sense, given how afraid of his own darker nature he is, and the repeated theme of "Harry is often dense." Even in CD and BG when he lets it run things in battle, he's basically just leaning on the basic, hindbrain inclinations, not using it. My theory is that the only time we ever see the mantle fully in control is when he's trying to kill Rudy in BG. Harry thinks of his mantle as just animal savagery, but Mab IS winter, and she's mostly logic, not animal aggression. Pure winter is cold primal logic unbound by remorse or ethics. It's ruthless logic, not just ruthless. I'd bet Mab was leaning on her mantle quite a bit while running all her glamours during BG. We know from Molly that an extremely talented and well trained human can do like half a dozen purely phantasmal illusions at one time. Mab is doing thousands of them, AND making them physical. That's not just a matter of having more power or more experience, that straight up requires way more processing power than a bipedal hominid has. My bet is that her mantle (an the other winter mantles) can help her with cold logic, aka processing power for magic and whatnot. We don't actually know, because Harry hasn't tried to explore the mental side of his power, only bottle it up, a choice I consider to be a straight up mistake, even if it is in character. (Un?)Fortunately, Molly doesn't seem to be making the same mistake.

Physical:
The winter mantle makes you stronger, faster, and more enduring. It cancels out pain, makes you key up for a fight faster, and improves recovery time. It makes Harry about as strong, fast, and tough as a person can be. Except no, it makes him WAY stronger and faster, it has several times, and Harry doesn't seem smart enough to explore this. The dude has ran faster than a vampire and taken a hit from an Ik strong enough to flatten cars (changes). He's lifted more than a ton and jumped forty or fifty feet (both in cold days). He casually jumped off a three story castle, and went hand to hand with a titan. The mantle obviously provides WAY more than "merely" peak human strength. Harry just hasn't put together yet that what it does in the gym and what it does in actual combat are very different.

Magical:
Harry is just using winter as a battery. Hellfire? Used it for things as abstract as imagining it helping him in mental combat. Soulfire? Uses it for communication, construction, destruction, and more. Winter? Duurrrr... Winter BAD. Emergency battery only! What a dummy. Dude even notes several times that the mantle has a seriously obvious "pack hunter mode" that orients to the people around him, but it never occurs to him to put that through its paces until Ethniu helpfully sets up an opportunity for him. I get that Harry is still growing, and a theme of the later books is him being more prepared, but seriously dude, take mental inventory. The mantle is there whether you like it or not, put it through its paces. Thomas and Mab both warn him about it in their own ways.

Overall I think we've just only seen three knights wasting the potential of the mantles. Slate was an idiot, Harry has a martyr complex, and Fix has only really had any competition for the last few years. Harry's lack of diligence seems pretty out of character, but I get that he's kinda been reeling for a few years. Still, having a repeat of the Hellfire story seems lazy. Harry trust(ed) his ability to know when to stop. A freaking Archangel trusted his ability to know when to stop. Dude absolutely should have done his testing by now.

[The_Sibelis]

I'd love to know exactly what Butters was looking at after Harry made that ice block to Dave them on the waterfront. That's probably the deepest he's ever drawn it in and used. I imagine in my head some wicked version of old man winter lol
I don't think it's precisely a battery tho. Even if that's the basic usage Harry can see for using it. From how it's described, I think it's an active channel TO Mabs power source. His limit's are potentially only her limits as far as raw power. He'd just have to give himself over enough to winter and have the precise ingenuity of how he planned on using it. It may, probably, kill him to push past a certain limit. Though that'd depend on how he manifest that energy. Through spell work? Yea, he can only personally gas so much before he's drained. Mortal an all. If he was just using himself as a raw conduit for it, more similar to when he took on Maeve in CD. Then he might be able to handle it. Though what'd he manifest as is up for debate. Something like the snow monster from frozen lol.

[Elequosoraptor]

Cthoniq, I agree it takes skill to use the mantle properly, but I think you're mistaken about it being ruthless logic. The series points pretty heavily towards the mantle being pure savagery, and logic is a way to control and handle the impulses. Mab is all logic because she's restraining the urges of a mantle orders of magnitude greater than Harry; her illusion display was scary because it was Mab, not the mantle, that was pulling it off. True, you couldn't expect a human to think like that, but she isn't human.

It's also worth noting that Dresden uses the mantle kind of constantly, especially in the last two books. He's taking advantage of the physical power an skill it gives, for one thing, and every single instance of ice magic we see is the mantle. Dresden on his own has 0 skill with ice evocations, that's entirely the mantle, not his own magic. The reason he hasn't tried experimenting is probably because, in addition to being concerned about the mantle's influence, he just hasn't realized there's more to it. The man can be insightful about magic, but he can really miss the obvious when it comes to applying it (see his total failure to use soulfire, which solidifies his spells, for anything but the most ephemeral fire evocations instead of like, a shield). Still, I think his current use of it is a far cry from "emergency situations only". Ice almost gets more use than fire these days.

You're point about him drastically missing the point on the physical benefits is a good one. That's an example of him just not putting the practicalities together. The mantle also makes him an excellent shot, and presumably grants skill with other weapons as well, but I don't think he's thought through the implications of that yet either.

[The_Sibelis]

He HAS experimented a couple times I can think of tho. Using Winter plus fire against HHWB4 in CD. An I can't remember when but he's laced at least one spell with soul fire(thinking against the same person) the thing with Harry's magic, is he rotates every few books between a particular motif(there's a theory behind why) early books he used more lightning, around DB he favored Kinetics because of his newfound fear of heat, for instance. Right now he's pretty deep into his ice phase as the WN. Thinking his recent trend might be towards proper magical items/enchantments and items. The spear, the ring Molly prepared, ect. Now he just needs a heavy hitter..

[Elequosoraptor]

When did he use lightning? I would have said wind for the early books, lightning shows up in Storm Front and technically Fool Moon true, but it's hardly a motif. I don't think he uses it again until Turn Coat against the skin walker, and then in Battle Grounds.

[The_Sibelis]

When did he use lightning? I would have said wind for the early books, lightning shows up in Storm Front and technically Fool Moon true, but it's hardly a motif. I don't think he uses it again until Turn Coat against the skin walker, and then in Battle Grounds.

first few books it's a whole motif. When he gathers his power and 'gets serious' it calls thunder to the sky outside(can't recall when, too caught up in the imagery of the wizened tree that refuses to move, JB's tribute scene to Gandolfs ye shall not pass scene).
I'd define his motif as whatever aura he's naturally manifest when calling deep upon his power. After GP it mainly changes to fire.
Though speaking of, lightning and wind seem to be commonly twinned in magic, and I think Elaine has that kinda motif going on in WK iirc? I know she uses electric stuff.
The theory behind it's kinda branched meta. But it's based on the idea Dresden, or potential paths of his mirror others character development, especially power wise. Early books I'd have pegged his magic as Odin/sky father styled. And indeed Harry's had many crossover points of reference with Odin as a character. Young Odin looks like a running back, Early Harry runs alot. Wintery Odin gets big and beefy. Harry as WK has been lifting barely human weights. Odin had a holographic emitter in the same vein of magical thinking as LC. Ect. Though some things do diverge as well.

[Melriken]

The Ladies in my view are meant to be the Knights director giving the Knights orders and information about when and where to strike. 
The Knights in my theory are meant to introduce new battle strategies and techniques. Teaching the armies that the Lady recruits how to use modern weapons.

I think it would be better to say that the Knights are 4-star generals to the Ladies President... or if you are British the ladies Prime Minister and the queen's well... queen...

The 4-star general plans the battle and directs the troops and makes the decisions while the president (prime minister) decides the objectives and goals and sets policy.

[Basil]

I'd love to know exactly what Butters was looking at after Harry made that ice block to Dave them on the waterfront. That's probably the deepest he's ever drawn it in and used. I imagine in my head some wicked version of old man winter lol
I don't think it's precisely a battery tho. Even if that's the basic usage Harry can see for using it. From how it's described, I think it's an active channel TO Mabs power source. His limit's are potentially only her limits as far as raw power. He'd just have to give himself over enough to winter and have the precise ingenuity of how he planned on using it. It may, probably, kill him to push past a certain limit. Though that'd depend on how he manifest that energy. Through spell work? Yea, he can only personally gas so much before he's drained. Mortal an all. If he was just using himself as a raw conduit for it, more similar to when he took on Maeve in CD. Then he might be able to handle it. Though what'd he manifest as is up for debate. Something like the snow monster from frozen lol.

Harry is making a mistake accepting too much of what Butters theorizes.  Butters is the one who gave Harry a reverse magic feather by explaining that the Mantle just hijacks his pain thresholds.  Butters had seen a lot by then, but not nearly enough to be a magical, but not magic consultant. 

In the Lake, Butters is doing some quick math.  Phase changes -- ice to liquid/liquid to steam -- represent absolutely stupid amounts of energy.  He has just realized how much ice Harry made in just a few seconds to float half of a sunken warehouse to the surface and it probably compares quite favorably to a small power plant: 

According to Wolfram Alpha it is about 3.19 x 10^6 KJ (to freeze 30 tons of water), and if it took 30 seconds that works out to be .1 Mega Watts. 

So, yeah that's a crazy feat of power all things considered 

[Tinfoil hat]

Harry is making a mistake accepting too much of what Butters theorizes.  Butters is the one who gave Harry a reverse magic feather by explaining that the Mantle just hijacks his pain thresholds.  Butters had seen a lot by then, but not nearly enough to be a magical, but not magic consultant. 

In the Lake, Butters is doing some quick math.  Phase changes -- ice to liquid/liquid to steam -- represent absolutely stupid amounts of energy.  He has just realized how much ice Harry made in just a few seconds to float half of a sunken warehouse to the surface and it probably compares quite favorably to a small power plant: 

According to Wolfram Alpha it is about 3.19 x 10^6 KJ (to freeze 30 tons of water), and if it took 30 seconds that works out to be .1 Mega Watts. 

So, yeah that's a crazy feat of power all things considered 

You big beautiful nerd you! Bringing Science into this.
Butter' s theory makes sense given the info he has. And everything he sees just shows him how scary THE WK IS.
The WK IS more powerful than anyone including  Butters thinks. I think he is in the same range has most Fae Eldest.