Author Topic: Fallout of E=K  (Read 4009 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2023, 02:36:02 AM »
Do me a favor, assume Elane is Kumori.
Assume Elane is still alive.

What does that mean for the Dresden Files and the future.

Specifically (but not limited to) the Paranet is being managed in part by Elane and signs point to the Paranet either replacing the White Council or merging with it.  If Elane is Cowl's loyal apprentice and has been shaping the Paranet she will absolutely have been shaping it to replace the White Council and join Cowl's Circle (black council).  This will do a LOT of damage to the forces of good (Harry).

How else is Elane positioned to cause problems and what kind of damage could she do with the Paranet?
Why are we not assuming Elaine is alive? Last she was seen was helping the Paranet.

Even so, even if she went "missing", I wouldn't necessarily assume she was dead. Too much writing potential in the character - and unfinished business with Harry for sure.

If Harry learns Elaine is Kumori, it will only add to his trauma. Given Harry's history...that makes it more likely.

I am not sure I agree that she is shaping the Paranet into some sort of weapon, except perhaps in terms of information gathering (which is powerful enough in it's own right). Not to mention, she clearly has the names and locations of the members (which gives her plenty of power over them, and could sell them out or have them eliminated if she chose).

See, the thing about Elaine is she is Harry's foil in some ways. She is so like him yet more pragmatic. Harry is almost pathologically driven to protect his ideals. Elaine is far more pragmatic about hers. Which is another reason why she might be Kumori. Elaine might see that the best way to protect humanity and ensure its future is to work with Cowl, to "end death" as Kumori put it. But she is also rebellious. I wonder if she is as under the thumb of Cowl as we think...Kumori chose to save someone she didn't have to, and while it furthered Cowl's aims somewhat, she could have far more easily simply raised some zombies or spectres. She chose to try and save someone, and Harry noted this. Kumori is an idealist, but also a pragmatist. Elaine seems quite similar. My personal theory is that Elaine is Enthralled in such a complex series of spells she hardly knows she is a thrall (this was explained by Bob when discussing how Enthrallment works in Blood Rites I believe, where Harry specifically likens fine Enthralling to what Justin did to Elaine...the second book Elaine shows up in - a long-term hint). This of course is lends further weight to the whole Cowl = Justin theory, given Justin was the first to Enthrall her.

Further, I think Elaine would likely be trying to warn Harry and reveal herself in the process. But it would cost her. I think Harry would be further torn between trying to save her (Harry's biggest weakness is his white knight tendencies) and being angry at her. Long term I suspect he probably ends up killing her like Susan, or she dies to save him. I can't see her surviving the series. She might help him kill Cowl though, so there is something in that potentially.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 02:38:28 AM by Yuillegan »
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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2023, 02:25:17 PM »
It’s 13, Corner Hounds are just a single Outsider with 13 bodies, that is made clear in Peace Talks.
and... Nemesis is a corner hound? Walker's come in a trifecta. It's definitely a Walker, would be far more likely to have a running motif than a random connection to the precise number of another Outside. I know of no other connection between corner hound numbers and Nemesis.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2023, 03:07:06 PM »
Nemesis is an Outsider, as are the Corner Hounds.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2023, 03:58:21 PM »
A species doesn't set the phenotype for a whole genus tho.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2023, 02:16:33 AM »
But are they? Outsiders manifest a body from Ectoplasm their biology may not even be biological.

Offline g33k

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2023, 04:52:14 AM »
Nemesis is an Outsider, as are the Corner Hounds.

Lash emphasized the Walkers as extraordinary foes, even among Outsiders; I would not presume them to have a "13 bodies" rule just because Cornerhounds do.

Offline Melriken

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2023, 04:43:48 PM »
Why are we not assuming Elaine is alive? Last she was seen was helping the Paranet.
I was talking with someone who thought Kumori was dead and had died in Deadbeat in the backwash of the failed Dark Hallow, we have seen Elaine since then, but I just wanted to avoid any conversation in that direction...
If Harry learns Elaine is Kumori, it will only add to his trauma. Given Harry's history...that makes it more likely.
This is the piece of evidence that most points to it being Elaine to me, there just aren't that many women who are tall enough to hold a knife to Harry's throat and he cares about enough to be hurt finding out they are Kumori...
I am not sure I agree that she is shaping the Paranet into some sort of weapon, except perhaps in terms of information gathering (which is powerful enough in it's own right). Not to mention, she clearly has the names and locations of the members (which gives her plenty of power over them, and could sell them out or have them eliminated if she chose).
Not a weapon, but something to steal the Council's secrets and work against them with... yes, that seems the best use of the Paranet to hurt (or help, but lets be honest...) Harry.
My personal theory is that Elaine is Enthralled in such a complex series of spells she hardly knows she is a thrall (this was explained by Bob when discussing how Enthrallment works in Blood Rites I believe, where Harry specifically likens fine Enthralling to what Justin did to Elaine...the second book Elaine shows up in - a long-term hint). This of course is lends further weight to the whole Cowl = Justin theory, given Justin was the first to Enthrall her.
My Personal theory at this point is that Simon had Enthralled Justin, Justin did Elaine and tried to do Harry but it wasn't truly who Justin was, so he was fighting against it and that tipped the scales when Harry fought back, Justin's heart wasn't in the fight so his magic didn't quite work right and that gave Harry enough advantage to win. Simon may not be the head of the snake either but I think Simon survived (caused) Archangel and is Cowl.
Further, I think Elaine would likely be trying to warn Harry and reveal herself in the process. But it would cost her. I think Harry would be further torn between trying to save her (Harry's biggest weakness is his white knight tendencies) and being angry at her. Long term I suspect he probably ends up killing her like Susan, or she dies to save him. I can't see her surviving the series. She might help him kill Cowl though, so there is something in that potentially.
Agreed, especially if she is enthralled, she likely breaks that and protects him, dying in the process.

Offline g33k

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2023, 06:14:33 PM »
Honestly I don't see the E=K theory, simply because we know Aurora got her claws into Elaine.

I cannot see Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize -- being able to implement an enthrallment, or even just an Oath compelling obedience, without the Summer Lady noticing.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2023, 06:19:35 PM »
I don't think Elaine actually knows she's a thrall at all.  Bob mentioned enthralling someone so finely they don't even know it. I think this why only kumori asks about his hand. Look at it like this, during DB, Justin/cowl had come to her and "activated" her thralldom. After DB, when kumori asks him about his hand, she's ordered not to remember what she's done as kumori. But it's like Mab hiding Harry's blasting rod, she can't even touch the edges of those memories. An since cowl didn't know she found out about Harry's hand as kumori, she's later unable to actually acknowledge why she doesn't need to ask about it beyond,"the Michael Jackson look". Like, she never even directly addresses the burn. Just obliquely mentions it. Something we've seen similar of out of fae programming.
I cannot see Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize
wait, what?🤔🧐

Offline Melriken

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2023, 11:03:25 PM »
Honestly I don't see the E=K theory, simply because we know Aurora got her claws into Elaine.

I cannot see Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize -- being able to implement an enthrallment, or even just an Oath compelling obedience, without the Summer Lady noticing.
It would be Simon doing an enthrallment that wasn't absolute or oppressive, just something that tips scales here and there and hiding it behind Justin's previous work keeping in mind that Simon taught Justin everything he knew.

Offline g33k

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2023, 05:17:27 AM »
... Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize -- ...
... wait, what?🤔🧐
Recent Dresden short "The Law" (released AFAIK only on Amazon (Kindle/Audible)) has a character who goes by "Nameless."  User @ConspiracyTheorist (here on ParanetOnline) argues strongly that this character is the same as we've previously seen as "Cowl."

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2023, 09:06:32 AM »
just as an aside, we've seen this a few places E=K, and a rationalization because she could hold a knife to Harry's throat.  I just held a pen parallel to the floor, like a knife, standing a foot from a wall (as if I was against someone's back and reached forward). About 5" above my head. Harry's 6'9" to the top of his head. Top of my head is about 10" above the traps, which is the base of the throat in front. So, for harry? 5'11? You can reach 5" up? So she only has to be 5'6", a LOT of women qualify. 

Offline g33k

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Re: Fallout of E=K
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2023, 11:29:53 PM »
just as an aside, we've seen this a few places E=K, and a rationalization because she could hold a knife to Harry's throat.  I just held a pen parallel to the floor, like a knife, standing a foot from a wall (as if I was against someone's back and reached forward). About 5" above my head. Harry's 6'9" to the top of his head. Top of my head is about 10" above the traps, which is the base of the throat in front. So, for harry? 5'11? You can reach 5" up? So she only has to be 5'6", a LOT of women qualify.
The more you extend your reach -- particularly outside the "right in front of your torso" space -- the weaker you are.  Reaching up *over* your head is a particularly weak space, except for a up-and-down motions (power-lifting, chin-up's etc); slitting a throat is side-to-side.  A small person "reaching up" that way is a very-precarious sort of threat; a swift move from Harry would easily take the knife away from his throat.

If the woman holding a knife at Harry's throat were small -- and given the stakes -- I think Harry would have gone for it.

Overall, though, I agree that "tall" isn't a solid piece of data to pin the Kumori-ID upon; at most, it just excludes the shorter women.