Author Topic: The White Council is kind of a Joke.  (Read 9047 times)

Offline Cthoniq

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The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« on: April 22, 2023, 07:28:28 PM »
After a readthrough or two, either I'm missing something or the White Council is kind of a joke. If there is any in-setting reason why they've survived this long, it must be because they have benefactors helping them behind the scenes. I'm more of the Opinion that Jim just didn't really think things through, although I don't really blame him. There's that old thing about "write what you know". If you aren't a lawyer, don't try to write a detailed court procedure. If you don't have martial arts experience, don't try to write a detailed blow-by-blow of a clinch for a grapple, etc. Obviously good authors get around this by reading the writings of subject experts or directly consulting them, or they use abstraction to avoid the issue entirely. Robert Jordan wasn't an expert swordsman, but he has some of the best sword fighting sequences in fiction because he uses evocative but largely unexplained sword-fighting forms to describe actions. "Arc of the Moon countered Parting the Silk, which flashed into Heron in the Weeds," etc. Jim's problem comes from the fact that he isn't a .01%er, and there's (supposedly) no 300 year old illuminati guys to talk to in real life so he didn't think through how a group of hyper-rich information brokers would actually go about business.

Jim calls attention to the idea of how conservative long-lived organizations would work, but what exposition says and what the books actually show are very different. The Black Court is a perfect example of about how failure to adapt is absolutely fatal to long-lived beings. The black court have all the tools to be discrete manipulators on par with the white court, but they didn't use those tools wisely, so they were almost wiped out. They have infinite time, infinite money, can control the minds of mortals, have immense leverage when dealing with supernatural beings, and are massively dangerous if ever confronted directly, a lot like wizards actually. Predictably, the only ones that survived the stokerclipse were the ones who used those advantages, kept their head down, and mostly kept out of direct confrontations. Just like wizards. The problem is that how the wizards are described (how the mechanics of the setting established they SHOULD work) and how they act in the books are radically different.

They have wizards answering the phones? THEY HAVE WIZARDS ANSWERING THE PHONES??? It's an organization of 200 year old millionaires lead by a group of 300 year old billionaires, and they don't hire personal staff? Rich people don't do anything themselves. Once you get above a certain income bracket, you start hiring assistants, both because it's convenient, and because your time is way too valuable to be spent doing your own taxes, answering your business phone, or wiping your own butt. Yet you have wizards doing drudge work administrative tasks? Personally doing ground-level assessments of warlocks? Wizards aren't *just* hyper-rich elites, they're technical specialists whose talents require centuries of dedicated full-time practice to develop. It would absolutely be worth spending 100 grand a year or whatever to hire clued-in staff members to take care of all the little details. Peabody being a dedicated beurocromancer for the senior council doesn't bother me. Wizard Macfee(?) answering phones in Changes does. Morgan, head ass-kicker and #1 field guy of the council personally following around wardens for YEARS does. Captain Luccio, commander of the wardens, sitting in front of a phone on desk-duty in the middle of a crisis point during a war does. The White Council should have dozens of hundreds of staff members for every actual wizard, including a ton of mercenaries, allied spirits, and personal retainers to help in the war, yet when we see crisis points it's never a wizard and all their assets, it's two wardens and three noobies responding to a council-ending crisis, or six dudes on a boat coming to throw down with two of the most dangerous people alive. You'd think there would be dozens of wizards who made their fortune by building businesses based around providing confidential, clued in help for other council members, but the only person we ever see doing that is One-Eye.

By contrast, Harry is what, late thirties, early forties by the later books? And he has like a dozen people he can call on for help in a crisis, or even everyday tasks. Dude's got half a dozen warriors on hand, a pack of werewolves, several fae allies, multiple vampires, and a gang of favors he can call in. I get that he's a protagonist, punching above his age and means, but if he can get that in like 15 years as an active wizard, why don't the senior wizards have PILES of resources to call on? Even in emergency "the red court is actively kicking our asses" situations, why on earth wouldn't Luccio have hired some Einherjaren or whatever for the Darkhallow? Why are senior council members personally risking their lives to bring in a prisoner when they could whistle up a gang of spirits to go poke that beehive first? Personnel restrictions can be explained by the war, but not the bizarre risks taken by council members, or the sheer bizarre internal structure of the council. Why are wizards answering the phones? WHY ARE WIZARDS ANSWERING THE PHONES? I know this is an odd thing to fixate on, but imagine Elon Musk or Bill Gates or whatever sitting at a secretary's desk going down a call list verbally giving out an employee newsletter. Then remember that maintaining your talent as a wizard is a full time job on top of whatever other responsibilities you have. So Elon Musk is running his companies, personally doing secretarial work, and holding down a full time job as an engineering supervisor. What?

The mechanics of the setting have absolutely hammered home the idea that an organization that works as inefficiently as the council does should have been destroyed decades ago. For the last couple decades they've had Harry there personally pulling their bacon out of the fire, but what about the 100 years before that? It just really seems like the council should be gone by now. Lara Raith even calls them out for this in Turn Coat, but the text acknowledges the idea without actually implementing it. I really hope I'm just missing something, because it seems like a pretty big error.

Offline g33k

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2023, 08:23:06 PM »
A few points worth noting...

In RE the Black Court:  in addition to their various strengths, they have some absolutely-fatal weaknesses.  And Stoker's novel, Blampire-Killing for Dummies, was an unexpected and devastating blow.  What's more, they didn't want to be "discrete manipulators."   They are, basically, bloodthirsty monsters; people exist for you to eat them, not for you to spend your life "manipulating" your food.

I think the issue with "wizards answering phones" is that you're into the security apparatus, there.  Mostly, you can't call the White Council.  But individual Wardens can call Warden-HQ... and reasonably expect to get a Warden to pick up the phone.  In the normal course of affairs, I expect it's trainees and newbies on the phones.  We mostly see this when the WC & Wardens are already in extremis from war-casualties (one thing I think the WC could/should do is recruit a bunch of noncombat wizards to fill those noncombat roles; conventional wisdom says that a combat-organization's logistics&support staff outnumber combat staff by between  5:1 - 10:1; see "T3R" -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth-to-tail_ratio).

It might be worth setting-up a separate phone-bank for non-Warden business... but the "masquerade" is deeply-entrenched enough that putting muggles into that loop, cluing them in "needlessly" and exposing private Wizard business, would I think be a non-starter with the WC.  Remember, each of those mortals would represent a huge privacy & security risk, given how many mindbenders there are on the Spookyside.  Resources spent on protecting their "service staff" would be vast... and in the end, never as secure as relying upon wizards in the first place.

Fundamentally, I think, there's an issue with "300 Year Old Billionaires" -- they are folk of their time.  They still train students in the Master/Prentice model, then make (so far as I know) zero effort to find proto-wizards and implement "mandatory public eductation" before the proto-wizards become actual warlocks; the Code Duello / Unseelie Accords are normative; etc.

This is the core of the "old organization conservatism" of the Dresdenverse, and it applies even more to the monsters (many of whom are actually immortal) than it does to the White Council... and there, perhaps, is the key to WC survival:  they're working on centuries-old organizational & military doctrines, where most of the monsters use principles outdated a millenia ago.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2023, 09:10:50 PM »
I wonder did the Drakul do a reverse Stoker and get Sir Terry Pratchett to write about Wizards?

Offline Cthoniq

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2023, 03:11:00 AM »
@g33k
I'm not saying their awful antiquated ways aren't justified in the text, I'm saying that their survival doesn't seem justified. Jim specifically points out several times that the supernatural world is a cut-throat place wherein weakness is quickly pounced on, then shows several giant weaknesses in the council. Harry covers them in the vampire war, but what about before that? Is the vampire war seriously the first time the council has ever been in conflict with a major power? How have they survived this long?

Offline Melriken

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2023, 04:31:48 PM »
@g33k
I'm not saying their awful antiquated ways aren't justified in the text, I'm saying that their survival doesn't seem justified. Jim specifically points out several times that the supernatural world is a cut-throat place wherein weakness is quickly pounced on, then shows several giant weaknesses in the council. Harry covers them in the vampire war, but what about before that? Is the vampire war seriously the first time the council has ever been in conflict with a major power? How have they survived this long?
Most of the Major Powers aren't stupid enough to get into a war with the White Council.  The question isn't can the Black Court beat the White Council or can the White Court beat the White Council... the question whenever one supernatural faction gets into war with another is how much damage will the winning side take in the winning?

Your arguments are valid against factions like The Archive or Ferrovax that if you can take them out you can do it in one hit or against factions like Ghouls that are of a fairly uniform power level.  The problem with the White Council is that every faction knows that if they attack the White Council they won't get them all in one stroke.  And while they could do enough damage to eliminate the council as a faction they all know that Eb or someone like him (or 3 someones like him... or more) will be left nursing a vengence and someone is going to come for you (the leader making the choice) and they WILL take you out, the BEST you can hope for is to kill them too.  There are individual exception to this, but they generally lack a motivation to fight the council (they don't gain anything by removing the council) and even those powers (Ferrovax for example) can't be sure they will survive a suicidal Eb and if they do can't be sure to survive the sharks attracted by the blood in the water.

300 year old Billionaires don't just have a LOT of resources they have a LOT to lose.

If a 70 year old Billionaire dies they lose 10-20 years... they still lived a full and rewarding life and can die happy.

If a 700 year old Black Court Vampire dies... they lose eternity, they squandered what they had and threw away everything. Everything.

My question is why did it take so long for the white court to go after the minor talents in an effort to eliminate Wizards from the world. That is the kind of plan that might actually work without unacceptable fallout.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2023, 10:33:53 PM »
They're pathologically averse to cluing in mortals to act as 'the help', and pathologically arrogant about the value anyone but a wizard could contribute. And they use junior wizards as receptionists because one thing very rich and powerful old people really love to do is enforce their juniors 'paying their dues' - even if those juniors are capable wizards themselves.

That hasn't killed them *yet* because 1) they're insulated by fantastic amounts of money and magical power, and 2) most of the rivals in their ecosystem are equally, if not more, averse to moving with the times. Most of the other hidebound nations have a blind spot that the way the Council is doing some of these things even is a weakness at all.

But some of their antagonists who aren't so set in their ways.  Lara, for one, has basically referred to the Council as a dead organization in the long term that happens to be still walking around in the short term.  Splitting Harry off and tying an alliance to him is basically salvaging an asset before the shipwreck - it's just that a lot of things move very slowly among the nigh-immortals.

The reason the Council are still alive isn't because the world is badly written, but because they're falling from a great height in slow motion. It's been foreshadowed that they're on track to either end or go through a transformative reorganization, though.

Offline Melriken

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2023, 10:50:25 PM »
The reason the Council are still alive isn't because the world is badly written, but because they're falling from a great height in slow motion. It's been foreshadowed that they're on track to either end or go through a transformative reorganization, though.
The Council will be replaced by or merge with the Paranet.

Offline Melriken

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2023, 09:08:27 PM »
The council is the bottom of a Slinky and the top was released a long time ago...

https://youtu.be/eCMmmEEyOO0?t=29

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2023, 02:21:09 AM »
I agree with the premise, and yet also disagreee.

G33k raises a few good points - namely that the White Council is simply a product of it's time. They aren't all that adaptable. They do have huge resources, but they also are heavily hamstrung by their own internal political problems. They only appear on the outside to work together; internally I would say it's far less organised. Think the UN, but at a smaller scale (the whole White Council is barely a few thousand wizards, given that their wardens only numbered about 200 in Dead Beat).

I agree that Jim probably would find it hard to emulate an Illuminati-esque organisation given his presumed lack of exposure to one. I also agree that the rich and powerful tend to have armies of servants to support them. I suspect the really powerful wizards probably do have large networks of allies and servants - we just haven't seen that much of this yet. But each of the Senior Council has shown glimpses into their networks. The Merlin, of course, has an entire organisation under him to direct. But the Gatekeeper has shown his relationships with the Faeries, Listens-to-Wind has shown his relationships to the Forest People as well as other local magical groups, Martha Liberty has connections amongst the Loa, La Fortier had deep relationships with a lot of European and other factions (which Cristos has taken over), Simon had relationships with the vampires it seems (as well as other European connections), and of course Ebenezar has been shown with the most connections (Vadderung, the Grey Council, Kenku, etc). Part of what makes the senior wizards so strong is their allies and political strength, on top of their magical might and skills. Jim has also said they each have their own demesnes to retreat to...which gets interesting.

We just haven't seen everyone put their cards on the table, as it's a Harry-centric story. Remember, the White Council had many allies to support it during it's war with the vampires. And when it came time to finish them off, there is a decent theory that Harry's involvement with destroying the Red Court and ending the war was somewhat planned (potentially that Harry acting unbeknownst to himself as a sort-of black ops agent). When the temperature ramps up I wouldn't be surprised to see people start to put their cards on the table.

I also believe that the White Council is very strict about allowing outsiders in - as G33k points out it is a security issue as much as anything. But they also seem to big on the idea of not involving vanilla mortals in their affairs. So the hiring of clued-in mortals seems a bit tricky.

I suspect the reason they have survived so long is partially to do with the appearance of power. They have overcome much in their history, which gives the predators pause. And Ebenezar has hinted that the White Council has nearly been wiped out several times over. So yes, they probably have more than a few supernatural benefactors invested in their survival. There is a reasonable theory that Vadderung (among others) caused the creation of the White Council - which makes sense given that he personally trained the original Merlin. So he and those like him would be invested in it's survival. I would be willing to bet he puts out a lot of unseen fires. Let alone beings like Uriel.

Not to mention, at the end of the day it's a group of several thousand of the strongest mortal magic users on the planet (with the exception of certain dark wizards and so on). That power combined, that knowledge combined, makes them a match for many groups. Yes, they are still minnows. They are nowhere near the top of the food chain. But they can probably hurt just about any being, and that alone is scary. Mortal magic after all has special and unique properties that the other supernatural beings don't have. And the White Council is probably the largest well of mortal magic on the planet.

I think the White Council's greatest threat ultimately is itself - and that is certain to be its downfall. Nothing lasts forever and the White Council is assuredly at the end of its time.

Sorry, only just read Snark Knight who sums it up more succinctly and clearly than myself. Agreed.




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Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2023, 09:39:55 PM »
I agree with the premise, and yet also disagreee.

G33k raises a few good points - namely that the White Council is simply a product of it's time. They aren't all that adaptable. They do have huge resources, but they also are heavily hamstrung by their own internal political problems. They only appear on the outside to work together; internally I would say it's far less organised. Think the UN, but at a smaller scale (the whole White Council is barely a few thousand wizards, given that their wardens only numbered about 200 in Dead Beat).

I agree that Jim probably would find it hard to emulate an Illuminati-esque organisation given his presumed lack of exposure to one. I also agree that the rich and powerful tend to have armies of servants to support them. I suspect the really powerful wizards probably do have large networks of allies and servants - we just haven't seen that much of this yet. But each of the Senior Council has shown glimpses into their networks. The Merlin, of course, has an entire organisation under him to direct. But the Gatekeeper has shown his relationships with the Faeries, Listens-to-Wind has shown his relationships to the Forest People as well as other local magical groups, Martha Liberty has connections amongst the Loa, La Fortier had deep relationships with a lot of European and other factions (which Cristos has taken over), Simon had relationships with the vampires it seems (as well as other European connections), and of course Ebenezar has been shown with the most connections (Vadderung, the Grey Council, Kenku, etc). Part of what makes the senior wizards so strong is their allies and political strength, on top of their magical might and skills. Jim has also said they each have their own demesnes to retreat to...which gets interesting.

We just haven't seen everyone put their cards on the table, as it's a Harry-centric story. Remember, the White Council had many allies to support it during it's war with the vampires. And when it came time to finish them off, there is a decent theory that Harry's involvement with destroying the Red Court and ending the war was somewhat planned (potentially that Harry acting unbeknownst to himself as a sort-of black ops agent). When the temperature ramps up I wouldn't be surprised to see people start to put their cards on the table.

I also believe that the White Council is very strict about allowing outsiders in - as G33k points out it is a security issue as much as anything. But they also seem to big on the idea of not involving vanilla mortals in their affairs. So the hiring of clued-in mortals seems a bit tricky.

I suspect the reason they have survived so long is partially to do with the appearance of power. They have overcome much in their history, which gives the predators pause. And Ebenezar has hinted that the White Council has nearly been wiped out several times over. So yes, they probably have more than a few supernatural benefactors invested in their survival. There is a reasonable theory that Vadderung (among others) caused the creation of the White Council - which makes sense given that he personally trained the original Merlin. So he and those like him would be invested in it's survival. I would be willing to bet he puts out a lot of unseen fires. Let alone beings like Uriel.

Not to mention, at the end of the day it's a group of several thousand of the strongest mortal magic users on the planet (with the exception of certain dark wizards and so on). That power combined, that knowledge combined, makes them a match for many groups. Yes, they are still minnows. They are nowhere near the top of the food chain. But they can probably hurt just about any being, and that alone is scary. Mortal magic after all has special and unique properties that the other supernatural beings don't have. And the White Council is probably the largest well of mortal magic on the planet.

I think the White Council's greatest threat ultimately is itself - and that is certain to be its downfall. Nothing lasts forever and the White Council is assuredly at the end of its time.

Sorry, only just read Snark Knight who sums it up more succinctly and clearly than myself. Agreed.






The WC suffers from organizational inertia. Almost every large organization has this issue, irl think cops, UN, military and others. Every one knows the organization needs to changeonly noone agrees on what that change should be.
This is why i think the war will benefit the WC IN THE end. New recruits to the Wardens Carlos and such picked up stuff from the old guys and from Harry. Harry mentions that most new Wardens try to model Carlos.
Harry for all his talk is anti social and only attends meetings which are bad news for the council. He does not network. Carlos does.
The WC is believed to be tough. Everyone thought that the war wasn't going to last with the WC winning that it didn't, is a sign of the powers that supported the RC. The WC needs to change to survive but calling it weak is a bridge to far

Offline vincentric

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2023, 12:01:31 AM »
The White Council is strong enough to face most of the foes we know of.

Winter and Summer do not have much overlap with them and most of the interactions are one individual against small factions of the Fae Courts. Some of these are even friendly.

The Reds were their main enemy and had the advantage but we know how that turned out. The Blacks are a threat, but they are too few. The Whites are playing the long game. They could probably win but it would require open conflict with all their resources in play and that's not in their institutional DNA.

The Formor, while weaker than the Reds, seem to be stronger but they are limited by their resources being heavily water-bound.

The Denarians are too few and have the Knights to worry about whenever they take action.

So the White Council can fight defensively and reactively against any foe we've seen so far. They can't really go on the offense because their institutional DNA prevents it. They'll rally against an incident but will let grudges simmer forever.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 02:59:27 PM by vincentric »

Offline g33k

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2023, 05:33:11 PM »
The White Council is strong enough to face most of the foes we know of.
...

I dunno about that... in fact, I kinda doubt it.

We have multiple voices saying that the WC is teetering on the edge.  Now, maybe some of them are just "shit-talking" and/or trying to be intimidating, but...

Here's the thing -- there is, broadly, a similar assessment.  That the WC is moribund, like a tree that only LOOKS healthy, but has a rotten core.  It's just more vulnerable to wind, to disease, to drought, etc.  And by and large, these are the assessments of predators.

If only one predator calls out a weakness... maybe they just made a mistake.  But when multiple predators call out the same weakness, odds-on that it's really there.  And, most-likely, the WC itself (and its member-wizards) are too close to the problem to see it accurately or to solve it expeditiously.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2023, 06:10:41 PM »
As far as benefactors go. Is it possible the gatekeeper is actually Odin(he's definitely something, just not sure if Odin is quantifiable) like, were they both at chicken pizza? Or was GK missing?  Hiding out as his human guise in it's human roles?
*It'd be a very batman/superman kinda thing. I could see Jim jiving with that kinda concept lol
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 08:47:19 PM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Melriken

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2023, 10:56:18 PM »
The White Council is strong enough to face most of the foes we know of.
I dunno about that... in fact, I kinda doubt it.

We have multiple voices saying that the WC is teetering on the edge.

Being strong enough to face most foes and being rotten in the core and collapsing are not mutually exclusive.

I think the WC is both strong enough to face most of the threats out there AND teetering on the edge of collapse.  It comes back to the fact that there are individual members of the WC that are absurdly powerful.

If you give the WC a target and let them bring the Sr Council to bear on it... they will take that target out.  There are exceptions to that, but even then... they might.  That doesn't mean that the Council isn't actively collapsing. It doesn't even mean that the war with the Red Court didn't EXTEND the life of the Council.  Having an external enemy may have kept the council together through a time it would have fallen apart in without that.  Infighting and political maneuvering are likely to end the council within Harry's lifetime.

I can't help but draw parallels with Issac Asimov's Foundation and Empire... Spoiler warning for a 75 year old book... The Galactic empire is DEAD... it has been collapsing for hundreds of years when the story starts... its another 200 years later that the Foundation (the colony that the story follows) first encounters the empire and when the two get into a struggle the Empire wins EVERY fight... and just before the empire wipes out the Foundation it withdraws it's forces... and this is all as the mathmatics of history predicted 250 years earlier... if the emperor is weak then strong generals would attack the emperor, if the general was weak then the foundation could defeat him or he would be held in check by other generals and governors... only a strong emperor and strong general could possibly threaten the foundation, but in that case the emperor would be forced to recall, accuse, and execute the general or be deposed by him (the conquering hero).  The Empire was stronger than any other faction in the galaxy... even stronger than the Foundation, but it was already dead and had been for 500 years.  Once the empire had directly governed every planet in the Galaxy, now it governed less than a third and much of that only indirectly.  Once the Empire had built fleets of warships stronger than anything ever seen before or since, now they couldn't even fix them when they broke, much less make new ones.  Oh, the knowledge was in books, but no one had the technical understanding to read those books and put them to use. And more often than not the books themselves were hidden and guarded.

The WC is a lot like the Empire of the Foundation series... Including the Merlin kicking out Harry for being too successful out of fear.  Arthur Langtry is the most powerful mortal practitioner alive, but he isn't a great leader, which is what you would expect from an organization that promotes members based on personal power/skill not ability to lead and make decisions.  He seems to be driving the WC off a cliff for fear of not being the guy in charge...  He is too defensive, too inactive, too afraid.

Offline g33k

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Re: The White Council is kind of a Joke.
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2023, 05:35:31 AM »
Being strong enough to face most foes and being rotten in the core and collapsing are not mutually exclusive.

I think the WC is both strong enough to face most of the threats out there AND teetering on the edge of collapse.  It comes back to the fact that there are individual members of the WC that are absurdly powerful ...

Remember -- the WC was losing the Rampire War.

They had lost so many Wardens & other combat-wizards, they were training up kids as combatants.  That is a desperation move, right there.

Then the Ramp's pushed Harry Dresden too far, and it cost them everything.

All of the powerful wizards have a few "OMG" tricks up their sleeves... the Blackstaff showed up with a private army of Kenku, fer cryin' out loud!  Not to mention Mother Winter's Walking Stick...

But Dresden arrived with *ALL*THREE*SWORDS*OF*THE*CROSS* .  Remember, just *one* Knight with *one* Sword was able to take out a (capital-D) Dragon.

If the Ramp's had just kept up their same campaign, they very-likely would have won; or if not an outright victory, done sufficient damage that other predators would have moved-in and taken their own bites.