Author Topic: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon  (Read 2590 times)

Offline Cthoniq

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Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« on: April 02, 2023, 10:11:33 PM »
Yo. Just finished my first readthrough of the series, started the audiobooks for my second readthrough. Came up with a bunch of theories, some of which I didn't see discussed anywhere here. The meatiest of them is this:

Demonreach the Island can move, or exists in multiple places in space as well as time.
I base this primarily off of the topography and geographical conditions that formed Lake Michigan, what I see as hints from JB, and inferences based on how we know the island's prison works.

Geography:
The closest natural "islands" to Chicago are Marina Island in St. Joseph, and Harbor Island in Grand Haven, both all the way over in Michigan 60 miles and more than 200 miles away respectively. On top of that, neither are proper islands on the lakes, they're points where rivers leading into the lake split and pour out into the lake with land in between, formed by rivers, not the glacier action that made the lake itself. Point being that there are just no "out in the lake" islands anywhere near Chicago (I know the text acknowledges this, but when JB ignores a basic physical law of reality such as how islands form, he tends to come up with a way to justify it). This is because the great lakes were formed by glaciers scraping over plains, which doesn't leave much room for big rocky outcrops that would eventually stick up above the lake's water level. The north part of Lake Michigan has plenty of islands, but zero proper natural islands in the south. On top of that, if you look at pictures of islands in the great lakes, especially the lakes in northern lake Michigan, you'll notice that they mostly all have a pretty similar look: low, earthen islands with gently sloping hills, dense tree cover, and they rarely ever reach more than 50 feet above water level. There are no high rocky hills towering over the landscape, that's more of a UK thing, *cough*.
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There was a much shorter, easier way, down what looked like a sheer rock wall. It proved to have an ancient narrow gully worn into the stone, almost completely hidden by brush.
This is odd for an island supposedly formed in the great lakes, since the vast majority of them are essentially big piles of silt and dirt deposited on a high spot in the lake bed, not rock outcroppings pushing up.
From turn coat. "Sheer rock" cliff in a region where islands are big silt piles covered in trees.
Hints:

Quote
"Doomed warrior,"... Excalibur
If we assume the island can appear and disappear or exists in multiple places there is an Island of Apples in British mythology, one explicitly connected to Excalibur and the fae folk. An island to which a warrior who wielded Excalibur was taken away, to be kept on the brink of death, until he returns in their time of greatest need... Thomas? Freezer boy? Morgan? Michael already DID return. I mean seriously, the island were Excalibur is kept is explicitly connected with apples, doomed warriors and fae sorceresses? I felt dumb for not noticing the connection in TC when SG rolled around and JB hit us with a clue bat by sticking Excalibur on the island. Weird how much Harry is starting to parallel IRL Merlin myths, but that's been discussed at length.

As a side note, If Harry ever eats one of those apples and notes it to be oddly bland and bitter, we'll know they're heritage breeds of apples from an older age, before we made the big juicy sweet ones we have now by selectively breeding them over the past millennia or so. Apparently old-school apples were comparatively bitter and dry, which is why they were primarily used as stew vegetables or fermented into cider, rather than being eaten on their own. "Like a somewhat sweet potato".

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So I thought about hornet’s nests, and instantly felt certain that there were thirty-two of them spread around the hundred and fifty or so acres of the island, and that they were especially thick near the grove of apple trees on the island’s northern side.
This is noteworthy because apple trees are not native to North America. Since there was a town there, it's entirely possible the would-be settlers planted a grove, but to me this seems unlikely since the soil on any small islands, and midwestern islands (re: big silt piles miles from a river) in general aren't great for agriculture, so it seems odd to spend the time and labor to plant a whole grove near an island town that would have been a waystation with few if any permeant residents.

Quote
There were deer on the island, though God knows how they got there.
I think this might be Jim trying to give a hint that there are more ways than "swim from chicago" to get to the island, whilst kinda showing a lack of knowledge about wildlife. Ungulates being present on islands many miles away from a mainland isn't strange at all. They can and do swim for many, MANY miles. This could be Harry's lack of knowledge, but since he's the tracker, "knows all the birds' names" Strider type, I'm guessing it's Jim. Overall I'd say it was meant as a hint.

How the island works:
To pull all this together, I'd point out the obvious and ridiculous tactical weakness of a static island in lake Michigan: you have to get big beasties from all over the world to a static island in lake Michigan. Even with the reveal in BG that you can work the binding from the shores of the lake, that only takes your local-use-only superweapon to a regional-use-only superweapon. I'm aware of the big summoning circle by the lighthouse, but think of the practicality of using it. We know from the Azothrogal summoning sequence in GP that summoning even a bog-standard demon can be quite a struggle. Yes, harry was a young puppy of a wizard, working with average tools, but I still think that the process of forcing a god or titan to respond to your summons, and then going through the psychic wrestling match of binding it would be too much for any mortal wizard. Demonreach didn't help with the spiritual struggle part of the binding, only with the locking up once Harry had won, so there's no reason to assume he'd help with the summons.

Further Speculation:
This whole situation starts to make way more sense if you can teleport the island to any body of water, or even to a number of fixed points. Five places in space, for 5 places in time, perhaps? Maybe it just exists in all 5 places at the same time, and Harry hasn't yet realized he can leave through any of them. I'm only aware of a couple of disappearing islands in mythology, but if we can lock down a few of them that could have connections with mythology addressed in the Dresden Files, you could narrow it down. Lake Michigan is one. Avalon somewhere around Britain would be another obvious one, what with the Excalibur, faerie queens, and repeated "doomed warrior" connections? Didn't Calypso or Medea have an island that could only be found once? That would cover the Mediterranean. Since the Japanese have approximately 250 million folk myths, I'd be shocked if they didn't have a moving island, which could cover east Asia. Makes me wish I'd read more mythology.

Apologies for the dodgy formatting, it's been a minute since I used a proper forum.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2023, 09:06:28 PM »
Hello, and welcome to the forums!

I quite like the theory!

I agree that it likely exists in multiple points of spacetime, given it was made that way (five at least), and also due to the power that five has magically speaking in the series.

I am not sure I agree it actually moves around - although that would make logical sense - I am not sure it's actually the case in the series. Simply put, from what we have seen of magic, it's incredibly hard to do something like physically move an island (borderline impossible) for a human. So unless a Dragon (capital D - like Ferrovax) or something of that order or above got involved, it would not be possible. Even so, it seems like they still use regular physics to aid them rather than simply being like a Minecraft editor. Given Jim said something about Dragons being told to "divert rivers" and "split continents".

In any case, I don't know if Merlin could have done such a thing unaided. So if he was aided, who helped him?

Another theory I have read is that Merlin deliberately picked an island far from his home land. How he knew of it or was drawn to it is hard to say, but I would guess either divine (or similar) intervention and/or time-travel things.

Also, it has been revealed that Excalibur and Amoracchius are one and the same (first revealed in Ghost Story). So it's not been just hanging around. It's been quite active - most recently in the hands of Michael Carpenter, ex-Knight of the Cross. So who would be it's wielder after him? A Knight...or a King?

But the person who would be most like a King recently is Marcone...and there is a pretty big reason why he CAN'T do just that, short of a massive change in personality. But even he isn't irredeemable.

Another King might be someone mortal, perhaps not yet seen in the series, but my money would be on Daniel Carpenter or even Harry Carpenter. Bloodlines seem to hold importance with the Swords.

Still though, I like the idea of a moving island. Would certainly have been more convenient for the Original Merlin, and make more sense why he is connected to a random island in America. That said, still doesn't explain how or why it moved there from wherever it was.
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Offline g33k

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2023, 03:54:23 AM »
How about 5 "different" islands, with extraordinarily-high supernatural correspondences.

Each one is in its "place" but (mythically; e.g. if you stepped over into the Nevernever) they are all the same place.

Because I'm pretty sure this Island needs to stay with the Ley-Line nexus...

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2023, 11:16:34 AM »
Avalon hosts sleeping Knights

Demonreach host’s sleeping Nightmares.

That is not to say that in its long history Demonreach has not had other names, and there was a time after it was built that it was unoccupied and could have been used for other purposes. Remember most god level beings existed before linear time. I suspect they only became interested in the Earth when humanity evolved as sapient beings capable of worshipping and therefore further empowering them. That would suggest the Middle Paleolithic era (45–200 thousand years ago). Demonreach was required to protect humanity from its occupants, so this need would have arisen around this time, depending on whether there was enough population at the time. However perhaps Demonreach had a predecessor? What nearly happened in Cold Days might very well have happened to it, if so then the logical candidate is Mount Thera, the explosion of which wiped out the Minoan civilisation in 1600 BC and would have destabilised their gods.

The Great Lakes were only formed by glaciation 14,000 years ago, suggesting that Demonreach the island would not have physically existed at this point, perhaps Merlin decided this would be the new Supermax

Offline Avernite

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2023, 02:31:38 PM »
I do recall, I think in SG, that Harry remarked he wasn't really sure hewas still on the island when descending deep enough down - finding the depth implausible.

So rather than a moving island, 5 (or more) islands indeed connecting to the jail without being the same island would seem quite reasonable. Maybe the 5 classical continents (NAmerica, SAmerica, Europe, Asia, Africa).

And as disappearing islands go, there's Hy Brasil (off Ireland), Atlantis of course, Mu/Lemuria (in the Indian or Pacific Ocean, or both if they're two things), etcetera.

Offline Melriken

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2023, 10:19:57 PM »
I like the idea that Demonreach is Avalon, and is Atlantis, and... other similar myths... it's a VERY Dresden Files thing to do...

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2023, 05:57:21 AM »
Agreed, although it can't be Atlantis given that Maeve says in Cold Days whilst standing on Demonreach that she intends to unleash destruction that hadn't been seen since the Fall of Atlantis...and one would think there would be no Demonreach then, not to mention surely she might recognise where she was standing. Also, pretty sure Atlantis was big enough to hold a massive city. Probably looking at an island the size of Crete or Cyprus.
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Offline Melriken

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2023, 06:09:47 PM »
Agreed, although it can't be Atlantis given that Maeve says in Cold Days whilst standing on Demonreach that she intends to unleash destruction that hadn't been seen since the Fall of Atlantis...and one would think there would be no Demonreach then, not to mention surely she might recognise where she was standing. Also, pretty sure Atlantis was big enough to hold a massive city. Probably looking at an island the size of Crete or Cyprus.
Maeve may not be speaking from knowledge of Atlantis but rather from knowledge of the myth of Atlantis...

Demonreach is the most magically advanced construct we know of... a group of wizards studying it and learning from it could have caused the legends of Atlantis (and its advanced technology). And Demonreach could change size as easily as location or even lost size in the event that destroyed Atlantis (it may have originally been the size of the rocky shallows surrounding it currently and the damage that was caused in the destruction of Atlantis caused the grassy plains of Atlantis to become rocky reefs on Demonsreach.

I am not sold 100% but if Odin can be Santa Claus... Demonreach can be Atlantis.

Offline Cthoniq

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2023, 06:28:16 PM »
The Great Lakes were only formed by glaciation 14,000 years ago, suggesting that Demonreach the island would not have physically existed at this point, perhaps Merlin decided this would be the new Supermax
I can't find the WoJ for it, but somewhere Jim said that The Gatekeeper wasn't the one who caused Daemonreach's limp, that was the glacier that carved out the lake, implying that Daemonreach is older than the lake.

I agree that it likely exists in multiple points of spacetime, given it was made that way (five at least), and also due to the power that five has magically speaking in the series.

I am not sure I agree it actually moves around - although that would make logical sense - I am not sure it's actually the case in the series. Simply put, from what we have seen of magic, it's incredibly hard to do something like physically move an island (borderline impossible) for a human. So unless a Dragon (capital D - like Ferrovax) or something of that order or above got involved, it would not be possible. Even so, it seems like they still use regular physics to aid them rather than simply being like a Minecraft editor. Given Jim said something about Dragons being told to "divert rivers" and "split continents". 

...

Still though, I like the idea of a moving island. Would certainly have been more convenient for the Original Merlin, and make more sense why he is connected to a random island in America. That said, still doesn't explain how or why it moved there from wherever it was.

I probably didn't explain it very well, but my idea was that it had 5 static locations, that it could be "expressed" through one at a time (or possibly all 5 at once, if you were trying to bind everything on a planet at once, but that's a BAT crack theory), thus the question about different disappearing islands located throughout the world. Sort of 5 different quantum superposition states, and the warden can affect the probability that the island's matter will be expressed in each location. Need to bind something in North America? *button push* Demonreach. Baddies acting up in Europe? *push* Avalon. Titans crawling out of the Mediterranean? *push* Circe's Island. The island isn't physically up and flying or floating to another location, it's just existing in 5 locations at the same time, and is accessible from those locations at the Warden's behest. As far as power requirements go, I'm sure all 5 locations could be on leyline nexuses, and there's a big ole dark energy battery in the Well.

I do recall, I think in SG, that Harry remarked he wasn't really sure hewas still on the island when descending deep enough down - finding the depth implausible.
It could be like Maeve and Aurora's courts in SK, where the physical location of the entrance is at a static point in the real world, but the space that entrance leads to is either in the nevernever or "between", since Harry always comments on how things feel different in the Nevernever when he goes through a portal, and never says that about their courts. But he DOES suggest that the physical space of the court doesn't make sense in the location it's supposedly occupying in the real world (giant ballroom in a commuter tunnel, tropical forest on top of a skyscraper). The Well could be another "between" space, with entrances in the mortal world. Perhaps 5 entrances on 5 different islands?

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2023, 10:00:04 AM »

It could be like Maeve and Aurora's courts in SK, where the physical location of the entrance is at a static point in the real world, but the space that entrance leads to is either in the nevernever or "between", since Harry always comments on how things feel different in the Nevernever when he goes through a portal, and never says that about their courts. But he DOES suggest that the physical space of the court doesn't make sense in the location it's supposedly occupying in the real world (giant ballroom in a commuter tunnel, tropical forest on top of a skyscraper). The Well could be another "between" space, with entrances in the mortal world. Perhaps 5 entrances on 5 different islands?

or maybe he was thinking Lake Michigan is 100 feet deep, or whatever, and he had descended further than that, so, being beneath the lake itself, it is no longer an island? Just another piece of the earth's crust?

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2023, 01:12:47 AM »
The island also bears semblance to one connected to Buddhist mythology in Tibet.