“You Know What He Was Meant To Be”

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Martha Liberty to Eb page 51 Summer Knight I believe this is the earliest allusion to Harry being Starborn.

LTW is present so all three are aware.

Earlier in Summer Knight, Mab in her first meeting with Harry mentions that she watched Harry stalemate the Leansidhe. In Grave Peril  I believe that Mab was told  by The Gatekeeper of a potential divergence in futures the centre of which was Harry a Starborn. She was watching Harry, not the Leansidhe, and it was after that that she bought Harry’s mortgage, I don’t believe she had any interest in Harry until then.

[g33k]

Martha Liberty to Eb page 51 Summer Knight I believe this is the earliest allusion to Harry being Starborn ...

I don't think we know for sure what she meant.

Most-trivially, it could just have been "Justin DuMorne's pet enforcer," a bullyboy warlock.  Here, I think, the part she's not saying out loud is, "all his basic training is from a black-magic practitioner, and while we didn't find any mental booby-traps we may have missed some; and because of that basic training, we cannot discount that his basic mindset may be fundamentally that of a warlock."  This is the POV of those who distrust Harry & think it was wrong to levy the Doom of Damocles instead of just killing him.

I presume most of the SC understand what a "Starborn" is, and that Harry (at least potentially) is one.

I also presume that not all of them were aware of the Ariana/Pere-Raith/Margaret.LaFey "starbabe" plot; that info would have come from Eb (who they failed to enroll) and I think he'd have protected Maggie by only telling a few he trusted (not the whole SC).

My own theory is that Martha was being deliberately obfuscatory: she knew most or all of it, as did Eb, and she was reminding him; but at least one person there (besides Harry) did not know all of it.  So by speaking in generalities, she uses "DuMorne's bullyboy" as cover for the more-dangerous plot.  (n.b. there may have been other veiled parties watching & listening, who did not drop their veils -- why would the wizards do something aboveboard when they could do something sneaky?)

... Earlier in Summer Knight, Mab in her first meeting with Harry mentions that she watched Harry stalemate the Leansidhe. In Grave Peril  I believe that Mab was told  by The Gatekeeper of a potential divergence in futures the centre of which was Harry a Starborn. She was watching Harry, not the Leansidhe, and it was after that that she bought Harry’s mortgage, I don’t believe she had any interest in Harry until then.

I disagree (strongly).
1.  All the major powers see the signs and understand that something apocalyptic is coming (they likely have a very good idea what that "something" is).
2.  All the major powers understand (a) what a Starborn is; & (b) that the conditions for a "Starbirth" were right, 30ish years ago... so there are 1 or more Starborn running around right now.
3.  Mab, as warleader of the Outer Gates, is primarily about fighting Outsiders (being "Winter" on Earth is the smaller part of her duties).
4.  Because a Starborn has both resistance-to and power-over Outsiders, Mab is keenly interested in bringing any Starborn (that she can) into her service -- particularly in such key roles as her Knight.
5.  We know Mab lays plans -- long, long plans.  WoJ says that Mab doesn't care about burning through most of her footsoldiers, because it only takes a generation to breed the replacements.
6.  We have to presume that Mab knew (1) & (2) ahead of time -- that an apocalypse & a Starborn were both coming; given (5) I cannot believe Mab wasn't laying plans (at least a generation ago) to get her hands (and oaths) laid upon Starborn to fight the Outsiders.

Then consider:

7.  Margaret LeFay was likely the most "faerie-famous" human alive (possibly excepting the ever-changing Knights); she was also an unusually strong wizard, and (via Salic Law) likely to birth a strong wizard as offspring.  This would automatically put her on Mab's radar vis-a-vis point #6.
8.  Mab's handmaiden is the Leanansidhe... who "somehow" ended up as Harry's faerie Godmother.
Really.  Mab's Handmaiden as the Faerie Godmother to one of (if not the) strongest wizards of his generation, who "just happens" to be the Starborn that Mab wants and...

egads, man!

You're a Conspiracy Theorist and you can't see this??!?   

[Mira]

I don't think we know for sure what she meant.

Most-trivially, it could just have been "Justin DuMorne's pet enforcer," a bullyboy warlock.  Here, I think, the part she's not saying out loud is, "all his basic training is from a black-magic practitioner, and while we didn't find any mental booby-traps we may have missed some; and because of that basic training, we cannot discount that his basic mindset may be fundamentally that of a warlock."  This is the POV of those who distrust Harry & think it was wrong to levy the Doom of Damocles instead of just killing him.

I agree, I believe this is what she meant also.  However I think you could lump starborn into that as well, given what we've seen of the overt starborns in the series so far, i.e. Drakul and Listens.. And perhaps that is the general rule for them? It also maybe the reason why Margaret chose to mate with a truly good man, Malcolm, to create one, to upset the chemistry...

[g33k]

I agree, I believe this is what she meant also.  However I think you could lump starborn into that as well, given what we've seen of the overt starborns in the series so far, i.e. Drakul and Listens.. And perhaps that is the general rule for them? ...

I think the message was more layered than that; she was saying different things to different audiences.

Maybe there was a cadre of combat-Wardens, both veiled and standing out of Harry's line-of-sight, ready to take him down if he offered any sign of violence.  Seriously:  if you were Captain Luccio, protecting multiple Senior Council members from a suspected Warlock (who was known to be an unusually-strong Wizard already) ... wouldn't you insist on a precaution like that?  (I mean... the Blackstaff likely needs no protection, but -- as Harry's advocate there -- his willingness to act swiftly in taking-down the warlock is subject to doubt; so, a backup plan).

Thus -- so I WAG -- Martha needed to speak "plainly" to Ebenezer, but have her context (Starborn, Adriana/Raith "starbabe" plan, etc) be completely-misunderstood by the magical brute-squad standing by.

And yes (given, as you say, Listen & Drakul; and also (as of the Journal microfiction) Morgan's mention of a "Destroyer") it seems possible that many (most?) Starborn turn to evil.  I don't think we have complete info, but Jim seems to be hinting that way.

OTOH, I've also seen the theory (is there WoJ on this?) that Rashid himself is a Starborn...  So it's also very possible that we simply don't see enough known Starborn "onstage" to have a good basis to judge.

... It also maybe the reason why Margaret chose to mate with a truly good man, Malcolm, to create one, to upset the chemistry...

If you're arguing that "goodness" (and evil) is a heritable characteristic, I've got to disagree with you strongly.  That idea underpins some of the worst instances of racism the world has ever known.

If you think she wanted Malcom to be the father-figure raising Harry (inculcating ethics & morality in an Aristotelian "give me a boy until he is seven years old..." sense) then I suspect you're right; although I also suspect she simply fell in love with him.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

“Aurora nodded, slowly. ‘From the beginning, you have been meant to be a destroyer.”

Page 239 of Summer Knight - the second reference to Harry’s Starborn status, we only know from Morgan’s Microfiction of  Starborn/Destroyer duality

[Mira]

If you're arguing that "goodness" (and evil) is a heritable characteristic, I've got to disagree with you strongly.  That idea underpins some of the worst instances of racism the world has ever known.

In this case I think it is.  I may not have myself clear enough, disposition and personality is inherited to some degree and has nothing to do with racism.  What underscores this in the series is the often repeated line, "you inherited your father's good heart.."  Now while that could mean a lot of things, that it is a repeated line in the series is significant.  Heck, Lash points out to Harry that one of the motives for Margaret setting up conceiving a star born was meeting and falling in love with the kind of man Malcolm was.  She did that because of what he brought to the table genetically in his temperament, something Harry clearly inherited.

[vincentric]

We also may be taking the term "Destroyer" out of context. Coming at it from a Western viewpoint, a Destroyer is generally viewed as "a bad thing" that brings chaos and violence to upend a peaceful society. But in some Eastern belief systems, a Destroyer is a necessary part of the cycle of the universe. They clear away the built up evil and allow for the growth of a new and better future.

Perhaps a "Starborn Destroyer" can go in either of these directions. Free will is an overarching theme of the Dresdenverse. Mab, Uriel and to a lesser extent Vadderung are trying to recruit Harry to the latter view while Nemesis goes for the former. It seems to me that the White Council is more focused on the first interpretation and discounts the possibility of the second. Also, their basic reactions are based on fear rather than hope. They default to killing a potential danger instead of nurturing a potential asset.

[Tinfoil hat]

What Martha meant was, 'he was the chosen one, it was said he would destroy the outsider not join them.
For some reason as soon as i saw the topic that just popped up in my head.
The SC and some of the older gus in the White council know exactly what he was meant to be.
The starborn occur every 2or3 generations. Im sure the journals and other records are full of signs and stories about starborn.

[vincentric]

But apparently, being Starborn doesn't make you good or evil, you choose. I mean our two main examples are Rashiid and Drakul. Harry could follow either path.

[Tinfoil hat]

We aren't sure about Rashid. But according to batman if there is a 1% chance. Im sure the WC uses that type of logic

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Tigress was hired by Ace to kill Harry, completely separate to Aurora’s plot, to gain protection from Maeve and Lloyd Slate from the Ramps, who we know were working with Cowl from Grave Peril.

Maeve moved her Court to Chicago around the time of Grave Peril, forcing Aurora to move her Court to Chicago as well. This suggests Cowl may have influenced Maeve on this point.

The Athame raised Lea’s power level above Maeve’s in Winter, destabilising Winter quite apart from its Nemfection of Lea.

We later learn in Cold Days that Ace is the Redcap’s scion, and latter still in Battle Ground that the Redcap was in fact a spy for Mab in Maeves Court for several decades.

Cowl would have wanted Auroras plot to succeed and  having seen several of his schemes badly damaged already by Harry and sought to take him out of the equation.

In The Law we learn Nameless has been cast out from Winter due to suspicions as to his loyalty. As part of Winter he most likely would have been drawn to Maeves Court as a Demi-god of Discord.

Lloyd Skate was the only Winter conspirator in Aurora’s Scheme, Nameless would have had access to him as part of Maeves Court and it would be in his nature to stoke his jealousy of Ruel and push him into Auror’s Scheme.

At page 203 of Summer Knight Maeve says” ‘There,’ she said, once I’d been seated. ‘Not so untamable as he claimed.’ Harry asks who and she dismisses it as no matter. Cowl would be in a position to know Harry’s nature, Nameless in a position to inform her of it.

Cowl is Nameless, hiding in the fringes of Maeves Court in Undertown when Harry visits, sowing discord to the Winter Lady and the Winter Knight, manipulating them to pressure Ruel through the Winter changelings and then have Slate kill him paving the way for Aurora’s scheme to destabilise the Courts.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

In Death Masks Ortega challenges Harry just as he is about to get involved in the fake Shroud caper, did Cowl put Ortega up to it to eliminate Harry from it? We know Cowl has ties to the Red Court and later on we find a Denarian is working with the Black Council, so Cowl should be aware of what Nicky is planning, and wants it to go ahead so uses the Red Court to do his dirty work, like Ace and the Tigress in Summer Knight, Harry is facing two apparently unrelated threats but Cowl links them.

Cowl of course would be unaware that the Shroud is a fake, that would appear to be knowledge held by Hades, Uriel and Mab at this point.
 
“because God said so.”page 59 Death Masks Harry explaining the theories limiting The Fallen, eventually shown to be correct and subject to balance in his dealings with Lucifer and Uriel.

[Ed0517]

You presume the Denarian knows what Nic is really planning. I do not think ANYONE, other than the actual Fallen, knows that. Casting Dierdre down to the underworld? Do you think she saw that coming? And that was his daughter

[Mira]

You presume the Denarian knows what Nic is really planning. I do not think ANYONE, other than the actual Fallen, knows that. Casting Dierdre down to the underworld? Do you think she saw that coming? And that was his daughter

 Maybe not that, but the fact is she was willing sacrifice.  To be a willing sacrifice, one has to be prepared to sacrifice for the cause.  Also I don't think it was Nic who planned it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

‘Don’t you think you should?’ Page 93 Death Masks

Ushalvhas The Cabbage Patch Doll who knows an awful lot about Harry, asking Harry why he does what he does, and Harry replies he doesn’t know. U obviously knows Harry is Starborn/Destroyer and agent of change driving his destiny and Harry won’t start asking UNTIL bloody Peace Talks, more than a decade later.

Yes Harry you bloody well should.

It should be noted it was at this point Bob says the shroud isn’t on his frequency but suggests U as an ally of the  Loa who are next mentioned in Battle Ground as serving Martha Liberty suggesting U, the Loa and Martha are attuned to that frequency an indicator Martha has Soulfire, which is why LTW can recognise it, later in the series.

“ ‘Do too,’ he replied. ‘I know more about you than you do yourself.’ ‘Such as?’ ‘Such as why you chose this kind of life for yourself. To appoint yourself protector of mortal kind, and to make yourself the enemy of any who would do them harm. To live outcast from your own kind, laughed at and mocked by most mortals. Living in a hovel, barely scraping by. Spurning wealth and fame. Why do you do it?’

Page 222 Death Masks Nicodemus to a freshly laundered Harry recalling the earlier conversation on page 93. Both Heaven and Hell have told Harry the same thing.

Not something I was looking for but on page 300 Harry laments the absence of his shield bracelet (lost earlier to Nick) later on the same page the absent bracelet is burning his wrist- Beta reader failure.

Page 315 Death Masks A dying Shiro to “ ‘Harry,’ Shiro whispered. ‘Nicodemus is afraid of you. Afraid that you saw something. I don’t know what.’ This is before the epithany Harry has that the Noose can kill Nick, but after the Barabus curse has been cast.