How much information does the WC have

[Tinfoil hat]

How informed are the SC about the world

In BG when Mab mentions the Outer Gates, he notices that not everyone understands what is happening. He also mentions that the members of the SC seem to get it. When discussing the armor Enthiu is wearing the others looks to them for advice. In PG the Merlin seems to know enough about the swords.

[vincentric]

Well, the Senior Council is tasked with protecting humanity from magical abuse. It's kind of their mission statement. So, given that, they should be briefed on all the major magical shenanigans going on in the world. Also, a key part of Senior Council is senior. These are some of the oldest and most powerful wizards around. They have to have forgotten more things than their apprentices know. Enough leaked secrets and much necessarily shared knowledge has to accumulated among them to give them all at least a general look at what's going on. And they each know more about their special interests. I'd say that the ingrained institutional arrogance, lack of unity and risk aversion is the only thing holding them back.

[g33k]

Wizards thrive on secrets... finding out others' and keeping their own.  What makes a wizard really dangerous is their ability to discover a secret weakness, and then (with prep) exploit it.  So, they know a lot.

But they don't share well.

WoJ says that -- collectively -- the SC has all the info they need to understand what's going on, who the secret player(s) is(are)... but they aren't sharing.  Without pooling their info, each wizard has only an incomplete and inadequate picture of the situation.

[Snark Knight]

So, given that, they should be briefed on all the major magical shenanigans going on in the world.

And yet, Ancient Mai didn't seem to be aware of what Demonreach really is, for one example.

(I suppose her scenes on the island might be read as having been dissembling to not speak about it in front of Harry and the other Wardens who aren't cleared to know ... but Harry suddenly acting weirdly confident on that particular ground should have been an excellent reason for someone who understands what the island is and had tried to sentence him to death before to absolutely not step on its ground.)

[vincentric]

And yet, Ancient Mai didn't seem to be aware of what Demonreach really is, for one example.

(I suppose her scenes on the island might be read as having been dissembling to not speak about it in front of Harry and the other Wardens who aren't cleared to know ... but Harry suddenly acting weirdly confident on that particular ground should have been an excellent reason for someone who understands what the island is and had tried to sentence him to death before to absolutely not step on its ground.)

To me, Demonreach and knowledge about it are the largest plot holes in the Dresdenverse.

[g33k]

... but Harry suddenly acting weirdly confident on that particular ground should have been an excellent reason for someone who understands what the island is and had tried to sentence him to death before to absolutely not step on its ground.)

It could simply have been a calculated risk, taken in extremis, relying upon several factors to keep her safe:
 * Harry wanting to remain in good standing with the White Council, & her own status as a SC member
 * Harry's relative inexperience (as a wizard, and with the bond to the island so new)
 * Some (unknown) defensive/escape magic of her own, that might keep her safe long enough to open a Way off the island
 * Other as-yet-unrevealed shenanigans.

[Tinfoil hat]

Ancient Mai is depicted as being smart, and old. If itd true that kemmeler was a previous warden of demonreach. The SC might have studied up on the island and knew its capabilities. Harry as powerful has he is still a child by SC standards. Not even a teenager. They may believe they  can take him. Think of the people they sent. Veteran wardens, the blackstaff, and the expect on loci. Sure we are told they are there for Morgan. Plus they weren't aware he was bonded to the island.
They seem to realise what happened pretty quickly. Once harry starts talking

[Snark Knight]

The SC might have studied up on the island and knew its capabilities. Harry as powerful has he is still a child by SC standards. Not even a teenager. They may believe they  can take him. ...
They seem to realise what happened pretty quickly. Once harry starts talking

He was acting like he could take the entire delegation if he had to even on the dock. He thought it was a bluff because he didn't realize he could command Alfred to grab everybody, and the narrative is pretty clear that Eb read it that way, but then Eb went ahead and pretty much backed his play by acting to the others like Harry was someone to avoid throwing down with. That should have made Mai even more suspicious about why he's suddenly that powerful in that place.  Allow him to get out of their sight once the fighting started after the way he'd been acting like he could take them all was monumentally risky, if she knew he could have them all snatched up and taken below with a command to the spirit.

She probably does know something about the island from their wars with Kemmler. But if Mai had been aware that "take them all below" was a capability open to the Warden, and connected Harry's confidence to taking up that mantle, I'd have expected her to shoot him in the back the moment he bolted.

[Ed0517]

He was acting like he could take the entire delegation if he had to even on the dock. He thought it was a bluff because he didn't realize he could command Alfred to grab everybody, and the narrative is pretty clear that Eb read it that way, but then Eb went ahead and pretty much backed his play by acting to the others like Harry was someone to avoid throwing down with. That should have made Mai even more suspicious about why he's suddenly that powerful in that place.  Allow him to get out of their sight once the fighting started after the way he'd been acting like he could take them all was monumentally risky, if she knew he could have them all snatched up and taken below with a command to the spirit.

She probably does know something about the island from their wars with Kemmler. But if Mai had been aware that "take them all below" was a capability open to the Warden, and connected Harry's confidence to taking up that mantle, I'd have expected her to shoot him in the back the moment he bolted.

Eb can just be being honest - if Mai sends the Wardens maybe Harry seriously injures or even kills one before they subdue him. Harry might not be a threat to Mai, and isn't one to him, but even the spiders kill a Warden on the island. Eb is the kind to be soliticious of the welfare of the Wardens.  He won't treat them as cannon fodder

We don't know that Alfred can "take them all below" at once. Alfred might have to do them individually. If you have 25 WWI era tanks rolling on your position, and you can call one modern one - well, none of the WWI tanks could damage the modern one, which can destroy them all - but he has to engage one at a time - they can overrun your position while Supertank kills them.

and Harry's no child. He's been a regional commander of the wardens. At a major summit, he was trusted in security.  He's not SC, but he's no rookie either. 

[Mira]

We don't know that Alfred can "take them all below" at once. Alfred might have to do them individually. If you have 25 WWI era tanks rolling on your position, and you can call one modern one - well, none of the WWI tanks could damage the modern one, which can destroy them all - but he has to engage one at a time - they can overrun your position while Supertank kills them.

 It isn't just Alfred though, Harry as Warden of the island can turn the whole place into a nightmare.

[g33k]

It isn't just Alfred though, Harry as Warden of the island can turn the whole place into a nightmare.

We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents.  Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's  the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).

That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.

[Ed0517]

We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents.  Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's  the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).

That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.

But do the defenses extend to Harry? Or just the cell block. And how many of the SC realized Harry had made the link. Even Rashid didn't know until Harry told him to check

and bad information can be worse than none. Luccio thought Ivy was on a level with the Summer and Winter Ladies. Harry pretty much says "More Mab or Titania". The wizards had her way underpowered. And missed 90% of Mavb's army, because it is at the gates. And Rashid never corrected that

[Conspiracy Theorist]

We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents.  Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's  the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).

That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.

Alfred has the capacity for multiple attacks, the Warden just needs to set him up for the correct mode and let him run with his intellectus proving further information in real time.

[Mira]

We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents.  Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's  the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).

That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.

Remember in Peace Talks after Harry brought Thomas to the island?  Lara and her Valkyrie bodyguard, [sorry at five in the morning with no coffee I cannot remember her name] couldn't come close to him because the island buried Lara in mud and tossed the other back into the lake.  It only allowed anyone on the island at the end of Battle Ground because Harry needed medical attention.

[g33k]

But do the defenses extend to Harry? Or just the cell block.

Mostly, it depends.

The island seems to have limited initiative, and most of the high-powered defenses need the Warden to activate them.

Harry at Skin Game (after an extended period exploring the island and its powers) is a very-different Warden than Harry at Turn Coat (after he did the Sanctum invocation)... IIRC, TC-Harry didn't even understand that he was the "Warden" of a "Prison!"

So, the Warden is a key component of the island's defenses.
It'd be kind of silly to leave the Warden undefended, or without the extra defenses the Island could provide.  Harry thought he was bluffing; the SC-members & Wardens in Turn Coat... and he was bluffing them, in that he was largely ignorant of all that power; he was just relying on the advantage of the Intellectus (and likely some halfassed "just in case" ideas about tapping the ley lines).

SG-Harry wouldn't have been bluffing ... on the island, it's likely he really could have taken a bunch of Warden hardcases and SC members, all at once.