Author Topic: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?  (Read 11299 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2023, 07:13:12 PM »
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But frankly, I think Bianca was too low-level to be told about Nemesis, and the true nature of the curse on the blade.  She just knew it as the Athame of Morgana LeFey, an incredibly-potent magical implement; that's enough for Bianca (it was enough for Lea, when she realized she had Morgana's Athame).  Nemesis was still hidden.  Remember:  Ferrovax himself was there, and almost certainly would have taken exception to Nemesis or any other Outsider-influence (WoJ puts the Great Dragons as part of fine-tuning the world -- on the level of raising mountain ranges etc -- which puts them pretty firmly into the anti-Outsider camp).

You could be right about Bianca, but then again as my brother in law says, "she is just smart enough to be stupid." If Cowl or some other agent of Nemesis was able to convince her that to enable the infection of Winter, why wouldn't she go for it?  I doubt that she would have thought it through.  Lets not forget this is the woman who fed upon her beloved secretary until she died and then blamed Harry for it because he pissed her off.

As for Ferrofax, I doubt that he'd care one way or the other about what the lessor beings around him were doing, or Nemesis.  He demonstrated that in Peace Talks, he has his own selfish reasons for doing what he does, and at Bianca's party he was there only for the gold.
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I don't doubt Lea was planning on getting something from Bianca; but she may have been open to any roughly-equal-exchange (bringing the Sword entitled her to receive a very strong gift in return! (recall that Winter Law requires Lea to expect this (or exact retribution); the Ramps will know this, and even blind-with-ambition-Bianca would think twice about earning the enmity of the Leanansidhe)), or Lea may have had something else in mind, some item from Bianca's treasury.  I think the cues in that scene suggest that Lea was a bit surprised -- and more than a little pleased -- at what she got.
You gotta look at the context, what Lea said pages before the party.. Even if she was surprised by Bianca's gift, it doesn't change her pleasure.. Why? Because it brought her power, not for her Queen, but for her.. Also interesting that when she did give it up, she gave it to Maeve, her Lady, not Mab, her Queen.. Hmmm... Do I smell a conspiracy that backfired because neither realized the Knife was infected?
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But fear is an intense motivator, a great lever to move someone to action.
And Mab is a master at manipulation; and Lea is Mab's Handmaiden...
Yes, but no connection to Harry trying to kill Lea with a Holy Sword, then losing it to her because of that.. Which set off events that actually made things worse for Winter. Not Mab's style.
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Nemesis is incredibly hard to detect; I don't think Mab knew the hidden peril at Bianca's court.

Hell, I don't think Bianca herself understood it; she was a pawn on the board of much stronger players, playing a much deeper game.
As I said, Bianca was just smart enough to be stupid, and she was the pawn that ultimately led to the total check mate/end game for the Red Court.
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More than "a bit," I think!   ;)
But note that Mab likes her that way; it's probably a major component of why she picked Lea as her "handmaiden."  Lea & her ambition is a key part of Mab's own regimen to keep herself at the top of her game. 
With in reason, there are lines that Mab won't allow to be crossed.  Lea knew that, I think when she realized she was infected she confessed to Mab and pleaded for both a cure and forgiveness.. However she didn't apparently confess to giving the Knife over to Maeve in time for Mab to cure her as well.  That, or Maeve was much more vulnerable to the infection than Lea was.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2023, 10:45:08 PM »


As for Ferrofax, I doubt that he'd care one way or the other about what the lessor beings around him were doing, or Nemesis.  He demonstrated that in Peace Talks, he has his own selfish reasons for doing what he does, and at Bianca's party he was there only for the gold.

No, I think Ferrovax would be interested in Nemesis. He might think he is amongst children, but he would pay interest if it is children playing with dynamite. Like Battle of Chicago, he pays attention when the events are big enough it can affect dragons. 

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2023, 01:47:40 AM »
No, I think Ferrovax would be interested in Nemesis. He might think he is amongst children, but he would pay interest if it is children playing with dynamite. Like Battle of Chicago, he pays attention when the events are big enough it can affect dragons.

  That's the my point, he didn't do anything during the Battle of Chicago.  As far as children playing with dynamite, unless he was about to blow up himself, he could care less.

Offline forumghost

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2023, 02:55:22 AM »
  That's the my point, he didn't do anything during the Battle of Chicago.  As far as children playing with dynamite, unless he was about to blow up himself, he could care less.

Yes he did. He was offscreen locking down the Never-never to stop the fomor from invading though there.

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2023, 11:49:35 AM »
Yes he did. He was offscreen locking down the Never-never to stop the fomor from invading though there.
Ferro did the most in that fight by not fighting. Reality cant take a Dragon going all out. He was  also holding reality together so that everyone else could fight
In my mind when ferro volunteers to go to  the neverever the little guys were thinking coward, while the SC and other heavy hitters were grantful

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2023, 02:05:20 PM »
Yes he did. He was offscreen locking down the Never-never to stop the fomor from invading though there.

Meanwhile it was Rashid holding down the fort where the real danger was, the Gates..

Offline vincentric

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2023, 04:28:14 PM »
Meanwhile it was Rashid holding down the fort where the real danger was, the Gates..

Rashid could not have done what Ferro did. And Rashid had the majority of Winter's forces, including the big hitters like Lea to help at the Gates. If you go and reread PT, Ferro takes the job of blocking Ethniu and the Formor from using the NeverNever as an assault route solo. In BG, Bob says that the power being used for that threatens the fabric of reality.  The dragons seem akin to the hydroelectric dams of the world. What they do is boring to watch, but just the trickle they let through runs everything and what they are restraining could destroy everything.

Offline g33k

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2023, 04:52:15 PM »
You could be right about Bianca, but then again as my brother in law says, "she is just smart enough to be stupid." If Cowl or some other agent of Nemesis was able to convince her that to enable the infection of Winter, why wouldn't she go for it?  I doubt that she would have thought it through. 
"Just smart enough to be stupid" is right; I too doubt she'd have thought it through.  But her handlers -- the ones using her as a pawn -- also realize this.  Why in the world would they give someone that "smart" such critical information, as the Nemesis-curse on the Athame??!?

I really only see one way Bianca could have known about Nemesis in the knife, and it's based on one of my less-likely WAGs:  that the Ramps themselves are Outsider-kin, empowered/accursed by Outsider energies.  The WAG is based largely upon names (which have power), particularly "Outer:"  what if the "Lords of Outer Night" come in some part from the "Outer Gates"???  It is perhaps a feeble thread, but it's a thread.

If that were the case -- if Bianca was part-Outsider -- then maybe Bianca might have had some instinctive/intuitive "feel" for the Outsider energy in the Athame...


Lets not forget this is the woman who fed upon her beloved secretary until she died and then blamed Harry for it because he pissed her off. 
Frankly, that's just classic bully/abuser gaslighting -- this vile thing I did is your fault for provoking me, for not accepting my abuse, for standing up to me.

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2023, 07:43:12 PM »
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Frankly, that's just classic bully/abuser gaslighting -- this vile thing I did is your fault for provoking me, for not accepting my abuse, for standing up to me.
Yes, but it was her excuse for setting up Harry.

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"Just smart enough to be stupid" is right; I too doubt she'd have thought it through.  But her handlers -- the ones using her as a pawn -- also realize this.  Why in the world would they give someone that "smart" such critical information, as the Nemesis-curse on the Athame??!?

Because she doesn't think... In other words Bianca was smart enough to know Nemesis is, but because she doesn't think, she is perfect to be used as a pawn. 
definition of a pawn in chess;
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What is the power of pawns in chess?
The power of pawns: The authors argue that pawns, often seen as weak pieces in chess, can actually be powerful assets in the right hands. They note that pawns can control key squares, create threats, and limit the movement of the opponent's pieces.
Which defines Bianca as a Nemesis pawn pretty well don't you think?  Basically the above is exactly what her party, i.e. those she invited to the party did, to set future events up.

Offline g33k

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2023, 11:21:36 PM »
... Because she doesn't think...

Exactly.

Why would an intelligent, secretive, advance-planning agent (like Cowl or Mavra) share critical info like that with someone like Bianca -- an over-ambitious climber, who has climbed higher than her competence, somone who doesn't think?

She can do her part just fine without the info.

Looping her in only weakens their operation, in case someone infers something if she does some villain-monologue BS, or even just a gloating tease.

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2023, 05:08:30 AM »
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Looping her in only weakens their operation, in case someone infers something if she does some villain-monologue BS, or even just a gloating tease.
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  Actually it doesn't, because she is so stupid, she believes her own villian-monologue, this makes her the perfect pawn.

Offline g33k

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2023, 09:38:49 PM »
Actually it doesn't, because she is so stupid, she believes her own villian-monologue, this makes her the perfect pawn.

Pawn yes.
Informed, no.

Who tells their SooperSekritPlanz(tm) to their pawns?  That kind of silliness is for the low-level villains.

Bianca did believe her own villain-monologue.  It would have been incredibly dangerous for  her to know that she was handing a trapped item to the Leanansidhe; I cannot imagine Cowl (or Mavra or whoever) trusting Bianca with that info.  It wouldn't have served their interests in any way, for Bianca to know this.

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2023, 11:49:00 AM »
Pawn yes.
Informed, no.

Who tells their SooperSekritPlanz(tm) to their pawns?  That kind of silliness is for the low-level villains.

Bianca did believe her own villain-monologue.  It would have been incredibly dangerous for  her to know that she was handing a trapped item to the Leanansidhe; I cannot imagine Cowl (or Mavra or whoever) trusting Bianca with that info.  It wouldn't have served their interests in any way, for Bianca to know this.

  Yes, it would if they also convinced her that her power would be greater if the Winter Court was overthrown.

Offline g33k

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2023, 07:48:16 PM »
Yes, it would if they also convinced her that her power would be greater if the Winter Court was overthrown.

"Give Morgana's Athame to the Leanansidhe" is sufficiently-destabilizing.  Lea herself likely didn't know of the Nemfection on the blade, but clearly she Got Ideas as soon as she saw the blade.

There was only risk in telling a climber like Bianca, and no upside for them.
 

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Mab trying to change Harry?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2023, 06:08:09 PM »
"Give Morgana's Athame to the Leanansidhe" is sufficiently-destabilizing.  Lea herself likely didn't know of the Nemfection on the blade, but clearly she Got Ideas as soon as she saw the blade.

There was only risk in telling a climber like Bianca, and no upside for them.

  I think that depends on what was promised to her.  Just a tin foil hat thought, but what if Bianca
was infected?  I don't remember it saying that vampires are excluded from infection.. Not saying that it does and I missed it.. ::) Anyway, we've got a sort of logical reason for Bianca wanted to take out Harry, she blames him for her losing control and feeding until death her beloved secretary.  Well maybe... But what if it was Nemesis that urged her to do it?  Then fed the revenge idea in her head?
Nemesis has got to know that the star born Harry will someday be a threat to them.. On it all backfired beginning with Harry able to turn the tables on Bianca, thus killing her.. Mab was able to figure out that the knife was infected to save the Winter Court, though she lost one of her beloved daughters..