Why is Mab trying to change Harry?

[Mira]

I don't know how much she is trying to change him. He's a powerful agent without the mantle. With the mantle, he's likely far more powerful than most past Winter Knights. But that will and power...he's not an iron hand in a velvet glove, he's an iron hand in a spiked cestus. He is going to piss off Summer - getting the Lady killed will do that. He will piss off some other powers - like the Red court. Remember them? He causes trouble. But Mab will take the trouble to have his abilities.

I wouldn't say he causes trouble in the cases you sighted.. In the case of Aurora, she was infected and started a war between Summer and Winter, yeah, getting her killed pissed off her mother, but she knew it had to be done.  What pissed her of is how it was done, the little folk using steel box cutters.  He didn't make the trouble with the Red Court they have been trouble for a millennia, but he finished it.

[g33k]

I don't know how much she is trying to change him. He's a powerful agent without the mantle. With the mantle, he's likely far more powerful than most past Winter Knights. But that will and power...he's not an iron hand in a velvet glove, he's an iron hand in a spiked cestus. He is going to piss off Summer - getting the Lady killed will do that. He will piss off some other powers - like the Red court. Remember them? He causes trouble. But Mab will take the trouble to have his abilities.

Mab thrives on conflict & violence; all of Winter does.  Remember Harry's experience of the WK Mantle -- violence.  Molly's testimony is that it's the same.  Mother Winter took a cleaver to Harry.  I think we can be confident that Mab's own Wintery urges are similarly violent & bloody.  She's just very, very self-controlled.

Also, remember that most of Winter is actually out very-deep in the Nevernever, fighting at the Outer Gates... most of Summer is Mortal-centric (in the mortal realm or the close-in Nevernever), and Winter only keeps enough of their forces in similar positions to be able to match Summer.... Mab is the warleader for the mortal realms, she is all about war.

She may lay deep & subtle plans -- particularly as compared to Harry -- but she finds Harry's propensity for mayhem & anarchy to be both useful (in uncovering hidden forces) and likely very sympathetic to her own drives toward violence.

...  He didn't make the trouble with the Red Court they have been trouble for a millennia, but he finished it.

He did "make" the trouble with the Ramps; Vamp's are always trouble, as you say.  They were not ready to actually declare war on the WC, though -- Harry forced their hand, he "made" the trouble.

Thing is... they were actually already planning to go to war, they just had planned another decade or two of prep-work before striking; their war-effort was unready, their early strikes less devastating than planned.  So (as he so often does) Harry's propensity for violence + investigation led him to act in ways too provocative for the Ramps to ignore, and they moved early.

As he often ends up doing, Harry uncovered an Evil Plan^(tm) to the benefit of his allies (one must admit, being attacked by a nation of supermonsters with addictive spittle didn't feel like a "benefit" to the White Council).

[Mira]

Thing is... they were actually already planning to go to war, they just had planned another decade or two of prep-work before striking; their war-effort was unready, their early strikes less devastating than planned.  So (as he so often does) Harry's propensity for violence + investigation led him to act in ways too provocative for the Ramps to ignore, and they moved early.

  That's a bit more complicated though.. Bianca invited Harry to her party.. He wasn't going to go, then Susan stole the invitation and he screwed up and lost Michael's Sword to Lea.  He and Michael had to go to the party, from that moment on it was a set up,if not before. Remember Mavra had a little something to do with Harry, Michael, and Susan not leaving the shindig. When Harry went to rescue Susan and Justine, Ortega just happened to be there to blame it all on him and declare war.. If anyone was the blame it would be Bianca, who wanted revenge on Harry because she blamed him for her losing control and killing her beloved secretary. Shiro did tell later that Bianca miscalculated,  because her actions forced the Red Court into war before they were ready.

[g33k]

... He wasn't going to go, then Susan stole the invitation and he screwed up and lost Michael's Sword to Lea.  He and Michael had to go to the party, from that moment on it was a set up,if not before ...

I suspect it was already a set up.

I'm not sure whose set up it was; I suspect Mab, tho -- Lea's boss -- having Lea get Harry motivated to go to Bianca's party.  I remain convinced that Mab was deeply interested in recruiting a Starborn -- Harry -- as her next WK.  So Mab was both testing his mettle, and tempering him in the crucible of violence & confusion.

 

[Mira]

I suspect it was already a set up.

I'm not sure whose set up it was; I suspect Mab, tho -- Lea's boss -- having Lea get Harry motivated to go to Bianca's party.  I remain convinced that Mab was deeply interested in recruiting a Starborn -- Harry -- as her next WK.  So Mab was both testing his mettle, and tempering him in the crucible of violence & confusion.

  I doubt it was Mab.  Remember Harry's total fear of Lea at that point? He was afraid she was going to turn him into a hound.  That's why he tried to kill her with Michael's Sword, which it wouldn't let him do.  It fell out of his hands and she picked it up and took off with it, remember? At the party Lea gave Bianca the Sword, and Bianca gifted Lea with the Knife that Cowl had presented to her.. Or someone fitting Cowl's description. The Knife that turned out to be infected with Nemesis.  Which in turn infected Lea, infected Maeve and led to her death, and may have tried to infect Mab until she figured out what was going on.. No, it wasn't Mab that set up Harry.

Here is my theory, I have posted it before.  When we first meet Lea, she appeared to me to be a bit power hungry.  When she got hold of the Sword, she made a bargain with Bianca, the Holy Sword, for the Knife.  She thought that the Knife would help her overthrow Mab.  I don't think Lea had any idea that the Knife was infected, but I do believe that Bianca knew.  Not sure how she knew of the Knife, but Cowl seemed to be merely the delivery man in this case.  Also remember Harry telling Morgan in Dead Beat I believe, that the Red Court were mere cat's paws of a more powerful group. That will be who Cowl works for, though we don't know who that is yet.  Bianca, as arrogant as she was and ambitious as she was, wouldn't have realized that she was being used, nor frankly did Lea.

The plan was to take out the Winter Court by stealth with the infected knife, while occupying the Red Court and the White Council with fighting a war.  The guard at the Outer Gates would perhaps be down and the Outsiders could attack.  Not unlike during the battle for Chicago, the Outer Gates were attacked.  Hmmmm, looks like the Fomor and even Ethniu herself were only cat's paws in the end to distract with that huge battle. Thank goodness for Rashid, who kept to his post.

[SerScot]

I am very curious to hear from Rashid after Harry’s expulsion from the White Council.  Would he have been involved in the “emergency Senior Council” meeting?  Or was that only The Merlin, Mai, Christos, and Martha Liberty?  He had offered to get Harry “reinstated” after his recesitation from his coma.  He told Harry at the Outer Gates to “if you want to help me keep doing what you are doing”.  I’m very interested in what Rashid will have to say about all of this.  Including what the “Stars and Stones” actually are.

[Mira]

I am very curious to hear from Rashid after Harry’s expulsion from the White Council.  Would he have been involved in the “emergency Senior Council” meeting?  Or was that only The Merlin, Mai, Christos, and Martha Liberty?  He had offered to get Harry “reinstated” after his recesitation from his coma.  He told Harry at the Outer Gates to “if you want to help me keep doing what you are doing”.  I’m very interested in what Rashid will have to say about all of this.  Including what the “Stars and Stones” actually are.

Rashid was very busy at the Outer Gates, I'd say the crisis there hadn't passed.  I don't think Rashid would have voted for Harry to be removed, I think he knows a lot more than he is letting on and as we saw in Summer Knight has his own tests for Harry.

Interesting don't you think the only Senior Council Members voting were ones i.e. the Merlin who actually ended up on the short end of a political clash with Harry.  The others were at the battle for Chicago, and at least one of them was disturbed by the fact that Harry had his own loyal private army, even if they were only six inches tall give or take.  They were effective against the flying squid things where these powerful senior wizards were not.  I think that scared the hell out of them.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

My theory on Rashid is that because of his advanced foresight he will sometimes vote against Harry’s apparent interests to secure in the long-term what is in Harry’s best interests.

He may have therefore voted with the Merlin’s Block to create a Starborn Wizard, but then surprised the Merlin by voting against Harry’s execution. His long term aim to end up with the Harry we know to challenge the Merlin.

He may have deliberately NOT attended the meeting on Harry’s expulsion  so as to facilitate it,

[Mira]

My theory on Rashid is that because of his advanced foresight he will sometimes vote against Harry’s apparent interests to secure in the long-term what is in Harry’s best interests.

He may have therefore voted with the Merlin’s Block to create a Starborn Wizard, but then surprised the Merlin by voting against Harry’s execution. His long term aim to end up with the Harry we know to challenge the Merlin.

He may have deliberately NOT attended the meeting on Harry’s expulsion  so as to facilitate it,

All possible, but I think it was pretty clear that Rashid had his hands full at the Gates.  Remember what Rashid told Harry in Turn Coat, that the time hadn't come yet for him tom challenge the Council, meaning not that he is discounting Harry's challenge at Molly's trial, but something bigger to come.. I hope Jim remembers too..

[Ed0517]

I wouldn't say he causes trouble in the cases you sighted.. In the case of Aurora, she was infected and started a war between Summer and Winter, yeah, getting her killed pissed off her mother, but she knew it had to be done.  What pissed her of is how it was done, the little folk using steel box cutters.  He didn't make the trouble with the Red Court they have been trouble for a millennia, but he finished it.

He may not START the trouble, but he escalates it with his handling. He sees a mosquito on the wall - and hits it with a hammer.  Leaving a big dent. Bianca stirs up trouble - and Harry burns the place down. Bull in a china shop moves. Harry's not a thrust of a rapier, he's a two handed strike with a claymore. It is not unnoticed... I believe at one point Marcone wants someone  killed, and Harry wants the guy just stopped. And Marcone gives harry info. Harry says he does not intend to kill him - and Marcone replies he has seen what happens to those who oppose Harry, he will take his chances.

[Ed0517]

Mab thrives on conflict & violence; all of Winter does. 

I'd say it is better said Mab thrives IN conflict and violence - but she chooses her spots. Mother Winter was more likely TESTING Harry than trying to kill him - like when Mab set her tests during Harry's recovery. Smothering him with a pillow? That's a test. The Summer Lady went flamethrower on him - THAT is an attempt to kill. Mab is a creature of rules, too.  Mab is all about being READY for war. Even her war a the Gates is a defensive one. I wonder how her relationship is with the Gatekeeper?  I'd be interested to see THAT dynamic...

[Ed0517]

Bianca invited Harry to her party.. He wasn't going to go, then Susan stole the invitation and he screwed up and lost Michael's Sword to Lea.  He and Michael had to go to the party, from that moment on it was a set up,if not before.

I suspect it was already a set up.

I'm not sure whose set up it was; I suspect Mab, tho -- Lea's boss -- having Lea get Harry motivated to go to Bianca's party.  I remain convinced that Mab was deeply interested in recruiting a Starborn -- Harry -- as her next WK.  So Mab was both testing his mettle, and tempering him in the crucible of violence & confusion.

Want to turn up the volume in the conspiracy? Rashid Saw something. He reminded Mab or Lea that the Council should make an appearance, it is a political point - and who is in town? Harry.... (cue "Burning down the house")


Remember, Noah was only a conspiracy theorist - until it started to rain.

[Ed0517]

My theory on Rashid is that because of his advanced foresight he will sometimes vote against Harry’s apparent interests to secure in the long-term what is in Harry’s best interests.

He may have deliberately NOT attended the meeting on Harry’s expulsion  so as to facilitate it,

Plausible deniability - his position is still unknown.

[Mira]

I'd say it is better said Mab thrives IN conflict and violence - but she chooses her spots. Mother Winter was more likely TESTING Harry than trying to kill him - like when Mab set her tests during Harry's recovery. Smothering him with a pillow? That's a test. The Summer Lady went flamethrower on him - THAT is an attempt to kill. Mab is a creature of rules, too.  Mab is all about being READY for war. Even her war a the Gates is a defensive one. I wonder how her relationship is with the Gatekeeper?  I'd be interested to see THAT dynamic...

Yes, she is about being ready for war, because an apocalypse is coming to the world's neighborhood.

[g33k]

I doubt it was Mab.  Remember Harry's total fear of Lea at that point? He was afraid she was going to turn him into a hound ...

But fear is an intense motivator, a great lever to move someone to action.
And Mab is a master at manipulation; and Lea is Mab's Handmaiden... 

... At the party Lea gave Bianca the Sword, and Bianca gifted Lea with the Knife that Cowl had presented to her.. Or someone fitting Cowl's description. The Knife that turned out to be infected with Nemesis.  Which in turn infected Lea, infected Maeve and led to her death, and may have tried to infect Mab until she figured out what was going on.. No, it wasn't Mab that set up Harry.

Nemesis is incredibly hard to detect; I don't think Mab knew the hidden peril at Bianca's court.

Hell, I don't think Bianca herself understood it; she was a pawn on the board of much stronger players, playing a much deeper game.

... Here is my theory, I have posted it before.  When we first meet Lea, she appeared to me to be a bit power hungry ...

More than "a bit," I think!   
But note that Mab likes her that way; it's probably a major component of why she picked Lea as her "handmaiden."  Lea & her ambition is a key part of Mab's own regimen to keep herself at the top of her game. 

... At the party Lea gave Bianca the Sword, and Bianca gifted Lea with the Knife that Cowl had presented to her.. Or someone fitting Cowl's description ...  When she got hold of the Sword, she made a bargain with Bianca, the Holy Sword, for the Knife.  She thought that the Knife would help her overthrow Mab.  I don't think Lea had any idea that the Knife was infected, but I do believe that Bianca knew ...

I don't think there was an overt sword-for-knife "bargain."

Remember, Bianca didn't have the knife when Lea took the sword.  I think it was when Lea gained Amoracchius that Cowl let Bianca know he could provide her with a gift commensurate with the one she was about to be offered.

I don't doubt Lea was planning on getting something from Bianca; but she may have been open to any roughly-equal-exchange (bringing the Sword entitled her to receive a very strong gift in return! (recall that Winter Law requires Lea to expect this (or exact retribution); the Ramps will know this, and even blind-with-ambition-Bianca would think twice about earning the enmity of the Leanansidhe)), or Lea may have had something else in mind, some item from Bianca's treasury.  I think the cues in that scene suggest that Lea was a bit surprised -- and more than a little pleased -- at what she got.

But frankly, I think Bianca was too low-level to be told about Nemesis, and the true nature of the curse on the blade.  She just knew it as the Athame of Morgana LeFey, an incredibly-potent magical implement; that's enough for Bianca (it was enough for Lea, when she realized she had Morgana's Athame).  Nemesis was still hidden.  Remember:  Ferrovax himself was there, and almost certainly would have taken exception to Nemesis or any other Outsider-influence (WoJ puts the Great Dragons as part of fine-tuning the world -- on the level of raising mountain ranges etc -- which puts them pretty firmly into the anti-Outsider camp).