So Fitz is...

[Mira]

Yeah, the biggest BAs we have seen circled are Mab, Titania, and the Erlking.

Don't forget  Chauncy, Harry used his circle for him, the others he managed to contain with a mere chalk circle if I remember correctly.. Also a chalk circle apparently protected Butters back in Dead Beat.  I guess you could say back in Dead Beat Harry knew just enough to be dumb as my brother in law would say.  His education was never complete, and he also admitted to being too lazy to really apply himself and study.

[Ed0517]

Don't forget  Chauncy, Harry used his circle for him, the others he managed to contain with a mere chalk circle if I remember correctly.. Also a chalk circle apparently protected Butters back in Dead Beat.  I guess you could say back in Dead Beat Harry knew just enough to be dumb as my brother in law would say.  His education was never complete, and he also admitted to being too lazy to really apply himself and study.

I recall Chauncy, but I simply do not put him in a class with Mab or Titania or the Erlking.  I think those three would swat Chauncy like a bug.  Harry used his circle on Chauncy because he HAD it. If I am a farmer, and I come home from hunting moose, and I see a raccoon trying to get in my chicken house, do I run inside to my gun safe to get a light rifle? No, I use the big rifle I brought to hunt moose - it's handier. Even though it is WAY overkill. 

[Mira]

I recall Chauncy, but I simply do not put him in a class with Mab or Titania or the Erlking.  I think those three would swat Chauncy like a bug.  Harry used his circle on Chauncy because he HAD it. If I am a farmer, and I come home from hunting moose, and I see a raccoon trying to get in my chicken house, do I run inside to my gun safe to get a light rifle? No, I use the big rifle I brought to hunt moose - it's handier. Even though it is WAY overkill.

But that is my point, Harry used a 22 on both Mab and the Erlking, while he used his 270 on Chauncy.  And as an aside, I grew up on a chicken farm and a racoon did get in to go after the
chickens in the middle of the night, I was small but I still remember the pitiful cries of the chickens. My father had plenty of time to grab, I believe he used a shot gun, and he successfully killed it.

[heidi_storage]

[Harry] also admitted to being too lazy to really apply himself and study.

I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it.

[Mira]

I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it.

  I agree with that also, but by his own words, Harry says he was lazy about studying.  Not until Molly becomes his apprentice that Harry starts to really apply himself.  In Storm Front a lot of his knowledge comes mostly from Bob.  Harry may of been mostly referring to his younger self, but that as you know is a critical foundation. Like a lot of very bright kids, they don't have to work hard to get by in their studies, so he didn't.  Not that it was all Harry's fault, what Justin taught him he learned well, but Justin's education of Harry was limited to what Justin eventually wanted to turn Harry into, an "enforcer." However things like Latin, important for a wizard of the White Court, right? Harry was capable of learning it, but more often than not he cut class.  Hell, he had no clue that the White Court even existed, so why learn a so called dead language? When he lived with Eb, it was mostly ethics that he learned and hard physical farm labor.  Why? Maybe partly out of Eb's own guilt about driving his mother away by pushing her, but also in my opinion to keep Harry safe. Because young Harry had that much potential talent, and the Council was already terrified of him in many ways. So Eb kept many doors to knowledge closed to Harry, as did the Council apparently.  Remember the comment about parts of the library at headquarters being forbidden to him?

Since Molly, Harry has applied himself, take veils, when we first meet him they are rudimentary at best, he complains he has no talent for them.  That might be true, but when he starts training Molly who has a natural talent for them, he applies himself and by Battle Front he can pull off a decent one.  Same goes for the Latin, he isn't comfortable with speaking it, but it is passable now. 

[Ed0517]

I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it.

I wonder if his studying then might have been spotty, in that he liked SOME subjects, not others. Like a student who is bored in French class, but likes wiring circuits in physics class. Plus, not he has problems and seeks applications.... not dry theory.  His crystal rod forcefield - it had a PURPOSE already. His rings, simple, then he improved on them.  Storm Front he saw he was facing someone with the exploding heart spell - se he had to know what it could do. He looks for practical knowledge, not theoretical.

[Ed0517]

But that is my point, Harry used a 22 on both Mab and the Erlking, while he used his 270 on Chauncy.  And as an aside, I grew up on a chicken farm and a racoon did get in to go after the
chickens in the middle of the night, I was small but I still remember the pitiful cries of the chickens. My father had plenty of time to grab, I believe he used a shot gun, and he successfully killed it.

And my point was - farmer pulls up to coop, he has the .30-06 in the truck bed already. So he uses what is on hand. Harry is home when he summons Chauncey, so he just goes to the lab where there is a circle already. Easier to go downstairs than to draw one, knowing Chauncey could be dangerous, so he better draw it right.  I think he summons Mab out by the lake. More respectful, rather than his messy lab, and keeps his neighbors safer. If he botches with Mab, he might be able to reason with her.

Shotgun works too. Gives you a little spread, too, if you are sleepy and it is dark and might not be as accurate as you'd be wide awake. And way more than a raccoon needs. 

[Mira]

And my point was - farmer pulls up to coop, he has the .30-06 in the truck bed already. So he uses what is on hand. Harry is home when he summons Chauncey, so he just goes to the lab where there is a circle already. Easier to go downstairs than to draw one, knowing Chauncey could be dangerous, so he better draw it right.  I think he summons Mab out by the lake. More respectful, rather than his messy lab, and keeps his neighbors safer. If he botches with Mab, he might be able to reason with her.

Shotgun works too. Gives you a little spread, too, if you are sleepy and it is dark and might not be as accurate as you'd be wide awake. And way more than a raccoon needs.

However that isn't the point, have you ever thought why Harry summoned Chauncy in his lab, where he has a circle that is stronger than a mere chalk one? Yes,convenience is important as you say.  But more importantly, Harry's lab is secret, he could get into a lot of trouble with the White Council for summoning a demon.  If Chauncy did get he was as capable of tearing up Harry as the Frog Demon was.  Chauncy is a thing from Hell, Mab, as powerful as she is, isn't.

[Tinfoil hat]

Harry's trap for Erlking worked but pissed him off. And dude probably understands why harry did it. And its probably why harry isnt dead. Imagine actually trapping Mab or Titania in a trap eventually they are going to get out. Better a trap that is weak that shows that you just want to talk and aren't dump dumb enough to actually try to trap them

[vincentric]

Do not underestimate Mab.  The only things we seen in in the Dresdenverse that top her are the Mothers, angels and Old Gods/Titans. I don't think Chauncey measures up to that level. Harry is often an idiot, but even he doesn't something he can't hope to control without a pressing reason.

[Mira]

Do not underestimate Mab.  The only things we seen in in the Dresdenverse that top her are the Mothers, angels and Old Gods/Titans. I don't think Chauncey measures up to that level. Harry is often an idiot, but even he doesn't something he can't hope to control without a pressing reason.

Oh I don't underestimate Mab, it could be that she was humoring Harry by honoring the constraints of his chalk circle.  Or it is something Jim changed his mind about over several books.

[g33k]

I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it. 

I think there may just be an element of it being a self-image formed in his early magical years, studying under Justin.

You know:  during the time when he and Elaine were mostly interested in minimizing the time spent on homework so they could spend time on each other...

So Harry had this formative period where he was a bad student & lazy about studying; and to an extent, still thinks of himself in the ways he learned then (because "formative").

[Mira]

I think there may just be an element of it being a self-image formed in his early magical years, studying under Justin.

You know:  during the time when he and Elaine were mostly interested in minimizing the time spent on homework so they could spend time on each other...

So Harry had this formative period where he was a bad student & lazy about studying; and to an extent, still thinks of himself in the ways he learned then (because "formative").

I think this is a lot of it, however I also remember a comment that Eb made to him in Proven Guilty after he took on Molly as his apprentice.  He said something to the effect that as a teacher he'd learn as well.  Which he has, not just at the human level, all good teachers learn from their students, but to teach her well, Harry has had to bone up on subjects he had dismissed earlier in his life.  As I said, one of the best examples is veils.  In the earlier books Harry sucked at them, said he had no talent for them and never tried to improve to be as good as he could get at them.  Molly had a natural talent for them, didn't really need teaching except on an ethical level about them.  But because he had to work with her on them, Harry applied himself to learn more about veils, apply himself into making better veils, and now he does a decent one.

[g33k]

I think this is a lot of it, however I also remember a comment that Eb made to him in Proven Guilty after he took on Molly as his apprentice.  He said something to the effect that as a teacher he'd learn as well.  Which he has, not just at the human level, all good teachers learn from their students, but to teach her well, Harry has had to bone up on subjects he had dismissed earlier in his life.  As I said, one of the best examples is veils.  In the earlier books Harry sucked at them, said he had no talent for them and never tried to improve to be as good as he could get at them.  Molly had a natural talent for them, didn't really need teaching except on an ethical level about them.  But because he had to work with her on them, Harry applied himself to learn more about veils, apply himself into making better veils, and now he does a decent one.

I suspect -- rather strongly -- that Jim was taking some info from his own life, and his background in martial arts.

There's a widely-held belief that, at a certain point in your training, you "stall out" and cannot progress... unless you start training students.

Seeing them make mistakes, analyzing those mistakes and working to correct them, deepens your own understanding.  Seeing them do something that "looks wrong" -- but still works -- prompts other analyses & understandings.  Etc.
 

[Mira]

There's a widely-held belief that, at a certain point in your training, you "stall out" and cannot progress... unless you start training students.

That could be very true, what I am thinking of is all the times in the early books when Harry is attempting and then complaining about how his veils suck.  He seems to be fine with that, as in, it is what it is, and never tries to improve, maybe modestly thinking it is as good as he is going to get at them? Which we find out later isn't true at all.