So Fitz is...

[Ed0517]

Finn is no bumbling fool, and his "little problem" isn't something he knows little about, his life and others depends upon it... He'd know as much as possible about it. Kim knows nothing, she just thinks she does,that's the problem.

Kim knows a little - she knew the outer circle. MacFinn may not know too much - amd Kim had access to a WC wizard to ask questions of. He didn't

Then he was either a total ignorant fool easily duped, or desperate.

I think he IS desperate... [/quote]
 

Except it never was about money with her, that wasn't what she was after.  Notice, her first move is to try and bribe Harry with a steak dinner..

Her first  act is to bribe a man she knows has been broke and not eating well with one of Mac's steaks... not even a sandwich, the steak dinner - she's hitting him in a weak spot now...

Just came to me - in a later book, doesn't Listens to Wind pass along Tera's regards to Harry? I guess it is possible she met him later, but did she know him at this time? If he asked the gf, she knew serious heavy hitters... he didn't ask her? She didn't push? Or is MacFinn afraid of the WC?

[Mira]

Just came to me - in a later book, doesn't Listens to Wind pass along Tera's regards to Harry? I guess it is possible she met him later, but did she know him at this time? If he asked the gf, she knew serious heavy hitters... he didn't ask her? She didn't push? Or is MacFinn afraid of the WC?

 Maybe, but more afraid of them than himself if the circle isn't properly reconstructed?  So he turns to a total amateur?  Yeah, I think it possible most likely probable that Listens to Wind knew and knows Tera West.  His people most likely know Tera West, which when you think of it seems odd that she didn't insist on him going to Listens to Wind or go to him herself.  There is trust there and I doubt that Listens would turn Finn into the WC.  Actually, why would he?  Finn wasn't breaking any of the Laws, he was just trying to keep himself and everyone else safe. 

As a group we've been struggling with this for years.  Maybe the problem is this was Jim's second novel, and though the opening premise sound good, it doesn't stand up to logic or common sense.

Her first  act is to bribe a man she knows has been broke and not eating well with one of Mac's steaks... not even a sandwich, the steak dinner - she's hitting him in a weak spot now...

Which is when you think of it a bit insulting to Harry.  Yeah, he was broke and likes a good steak dinner as well as the next person, but did she think he could be bought off that cheaply or at all? Just how she asks him, well I have this hypocritical question about how to build a circle strong enough to hold demi-gods and archangels, but now answer as to why she wants to build it.

[g33k]

...  Wonder if he checked with relatives?  You'd think over the years they'd produce a back up circle.

I suspect this isn't well known in the broader family.  Too hard to keep it secret when too many know (cousin Jaimie tells his wife, who tells her twin-sister, who tells her husband, etc...)

The current "owner" of the curse probably -- mostly -- tries to keep his "heir" appraised.  But sometimes there will be an asshole who doesn't care.  Sometimes there won't be a clear, direct heir -- it may go to an obscure "cadet" branch of the family, even a long-lost by-blow (which is another way a family's accumulated "lore" could be lost to the person laboring under the curse).

[Mira]

I suspect this isn't well known in the broader family.  Too hard to keep it secret when too many know (cousin Jaimie tells his wife, who tells her twin-sister, who tells her husband, etc...)

The current "owner" of the curse probably -- mostly -- tries to keep his "heir" appraised.  But sometimes there will be an asshole who doesn't care.  Sometimes there won't be a clear, direct heir -- it may go to an obscure "cadet" branch of the family, even a long-lost by-blow (which is another way a family's accumulated "lore" could be lost to the person laboring under the curse).

I just don't buy that, mainly because the results of ignorance is so deadly.  According to Bob the last time there was a rampage by a Loop was in the 1600s, stuff like that isn't kept under wraps unless the family is well aware of it.  Heck Finn himself couldn't functioned in the military of all places unless he knew the ins and outs of his curse. 

[g33k]

I just don't buy that, mainly because the results of ignorance is so deadly.  According to Bob the last time there was a rampage by a Loop was in the 1600s, stuff like that isn't kept under wraps unless the family is well aware of it.  Heck Finn himself couldn't functioned in the military of all places unless he knew the ins and outs of his curse. 

I think we should presume the MacFinn lineage was in possession of the major Circle since that 1600's date.

If they were able to keep the circle, it seems to follow they likely have continuous family lore since that date, too.

That "outbreak" (in the 1600's) might have represented a discontinuity in Circle-possession & family-lore.  The main family line may have died out, and they were unclear who would inherit.  Then they had to wait to find out who wolfed-out, and maybe it was a very distant relationship.  Eventually the horror story reached the family-in-the-know, and they rushed circle & family-records to the site...

(all of which presumes the 1600's Loup (as mentioned by Bob) was a Loup of the MacFinn line, and not some other Loup; maybe the MacFinn's were safely under control through this time ... But I presume Jim wouldn't have written Bob's line to be irrelevant, so...)
 

[Ed0517]

Maybe, but more afraid of them than himself if the circle isn't properly reconstructed?  So he turns to a total amateur?  Yeah, I think it possible most likely probable that Listens to Wind knew and knows Tera West.  His people most likely know Tera West, which when you think of it seems odd that she didn't insist on him going to Listens to Wind or go to him herself.  There is trust there and I doubt that Listens would turn Finn into the WC.  Actually, why would he?  Finn wasn't breaking any of the Laws, he was just trying to keep himself and everyone else safe. 

And the fact the last outbreak was 400 years ago makes you think they have been pretty responsible about it.

As a group we've been struggling with this for years.  Maybe the problem is this was Jim's second novel, and though the opening premise sound good, it doesn't stand up to logic or common sense.

Yeah, probably best to write it off as a lack of continuity. Just like Harry originally was described as tallm, but now he's 6'9"...  who had the impression in the early books he was a full foot taller than a lot of men? 


 

Which is when you think of it a bit insulting to Harry.  Yeah, he was broke and likes a good steak dinner as well as the next person, but did she think he could be bought off that cheaply or at all? 

Women have been trying to buy men off with food since the first mastodon steak....  works quite a bit.
[/quote]

I have this hypocritical question about how to build a circle strong enough to hold demi-gods and archangels, 

This is likely going to be one of the inconsistencies. They may have thought it at the time, but i bet Mr. Sunshine would walk thru it like a summer rain. In fact, why wouldn't Harry have a circle like that in his lab, then? He's had the Erlking mad at him. He;s even circled Uriel, though Uriel said it wouldn't do squat.

[Ed0517]

I think we should presume the MacFinn lineage was in possession of the major Circle since that 1600's date.

Well, something. It may have been different circles. Or, could this thing be caged? Could it be contained in a  Highlands dungeon in heavy chains and 2 inch thick bars? Such cells don't travel easily, though

That "outbreak" (in the 1600's) might have represented a discontinuity in Circle-possession & family-lore.  The main family line may have died out, and they were unclear who would inherit.  Then they had to wait to find out who wolfed-out, and maybe it was a very distant relationship.  Eventually the horror story reached the family-in-the-know, and they rushed circle & family-records to the site...

.... I am thinking possibly the curse follows the blood, not just the name.... the heir might have met some sweet French girl in his travels - perhaps aboard to study -  before he was ever betrothed, and left her something to remember him by. He became the loup later, and when he passed, his legitimate son expected to receive the curse... and didn't...  and the creature was free to prey until the family hunted him down.

(all of which presumes the 1600's Loup (as mentioned by Bob) was a Loup of the MacFinn line, and not some other Loup; maybe the MacFinn's were safely under control through this time ... But I presume Jim wouldn't have written Bob's line to be irrelevant, so...)
[/quote]

[Ed0517]

ah, shouldn't be a Highlands castle... got thrown by Mac, which is more typically Scottish.. Irish more commonly Mc. But it does happen on both sides. They are closer to each other than the Sassenach....

[Mira]

This is likely going to be one of the inconsistencies. They may have thought it at the time, but i bet Mr. Sunshine would walk thru it like a summer rain. In fact, why wouldn't Harry have a circle like that in his lab, then? He's had the Erlking mad at him. He;s even circled Uriel, though Uriel said it wouldn't do squat.
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Well, the circle that Uriel said wouldn't do squat was one that Harry did while he was flat on his broken back in Changes.  It was more mental than physical, it wasn't the same circle as Finn had. As to having one like that in his lab, think he answered that question when he wouldn't show Kim how to make it, draws too much attention from the Wardens because of what can be summoned with one.  Also through out the series he has managed to contain some pretty powerful beings with an ordinary chalk one.

Women have been trying to buy men off with food since the first mastodon steak....  works quite a bit.

It is a bit more complicated than that, trust me..

[g33k]

... Which is when you think of it a bit insulting to Harry.  Yeah, he was broke and likes a good steak dinner as well as the next person, but did she think he could be bought off that cheaply or at all?
...

I always presumed the whole "steak dinner" thing was part of Kim attempting to downplay the importance of the thing.

We MacFinn's backing, she could easily have dropped thousands of $$$ onto Harry as a "consulting fee" (since MacFinn was trusting her to do the work, he'd likely have trusted her that Harry was qualfied for the fee) ... but that would have shown the request to be something substantive, instead of just a "theoretical" exercise.

###

I continue to think, however, that the most-likely reason for MacFinn's reticence with regard to Harry is that Harry is WC.  I think the family lore is probably that going to a WC wizard often ends (sooner or later) in a Warden action, then the Loup goes wild, there are deaths & other mayhem, and eventually one or more Loup's / heirs get killed, until the Curse passes to some sufficiently-obscure cadet branch that the Wardens don't find it for a while.

[Mira]

I always presumed the whole "steak dinner" thing was part of Kim attempting to downplay the importance of the thing.

Very possible, but it also underscores her ignorance of what she is dealing with.  Not only that, but her total disregard for the responsibility that comes with that kind of power.

I continue to think, however, that the most-likely reason for MacFinn's reticence with regard to Harry is that Harry is WC.  I think the family lore is probably that WC soften ends in the Wardens, then the Loup goes wild, there are deaths & other mayhem, and eventually one or more Loup's / heirs get killed, until the Curse passes to some sufficiently-obscure cadet branch that the Wardens don't find it for a while.

My problem with that theory is unless MacFinn was breaking the Laws of Magic, I doubt that the WC would notice him.  Now it could be that the wizard that originally built the circle got into trouble for it, was tried, and was executed for that and number of other rule bendings.. Then I could see MacFinn hesitant about going to a full wizard.  But Kim?  She seems to be barely Paranet level, at least at the point were we meet her.

[Ed0517]

Well, the circle that Uriel said wouldn't do squat was one that Harry did while he was flat on his broken back in Changes.  It was more mental than physical, it wasn't the same circle as Finn had. As to having one like that in his lab, think he answered that question when he wouldn't show Kim how to make it, draws too much attention from the Wardens because of what can be summoned with one.  Also through out the series he has managed to contain some pretty powerful beings with an ordinary chalk one.

Uriel is magnitudes of power above the beings Harry caged. He scares MAB. She won't speak his NAME she's so scared.  Plus, didn't we have WOJ on a multidimensional continuum? Even multiple Mothers. One unique entity we have seen. Uriel. You think TWG is going to let creatures have enough power to cage HIS top spook? Uriel walks.

Women have been trying to buy men off with food since the first mastodon steak....  works quite a bit.

It is a bit more complicated than that, trust me..

I said TRYING. Didn't say it always worked. But it sure has in some cases

[Ed0517]

I continue to think, however, that the most-likely reason for MacFinn's reticence with regard to Harry is that Harry is WC.  I think the family lore is probably that WC soften ends in the Wardens, then the Loup goes wild, there are deaths & other mayhem, and eventually one or more Loup's / heirs get killed, until the Curse passes to some sufficiently-obscure cadet branch that the Wardens don't find it for a while.

that would seem awfully short-sighted, considering they know that they need a heavy duty circle for the loup. Letting any Tom, Dick, or Kim try to fix it? They seem responsible, considering the time between outbreaks (if the French outbreak was even them) - why not reach out?

[Mira]

Uriel is magnitudes of power above the beings Harry caged. He scares MAB. She won't speak his NAME she's so scared.  Plus, didn't we have WOJ on a multidimensional continuum? Even multiple Mothers. One unique entity we have seen. Uriel. You think TWG is going to let creatures have enough power to cage HIS top spook? Uriel walks.

  I would tend to agree, but at the same time as far as the series goes at any rate, this circle has never been used for anything more dangerous than a Loop.  However while a Loop is real bad ass I don't remember it actually having power like a demi-god or an archangel..  So was Harry right about what he said about the circle?  Remains to be seen, or at least we haven't seen the evidence of it as of yet.

I said TRYING. Didn't say it always worked. But it sure has in some cases

I know, my problem I guess is getting information to build this circle is a matter of life and death, and she is trying to put Harry in a good mood by a steak dinner?  Maybe its just me, but that picture seems all wrong.

that would seem awfully short-sighted, considering they know that they need a heavy duty circle for the loup. Letting any Tom, Dick, or Kim try to fix it? They seem responsible, considering the time between outbreaks (if the French outbreak was even them) - why not reach out?

Which, in my opinion is the weakness of the whole story line.  Maybe it is true of most fantasy, one shouldn't try to think too deeply or logically about the story line.  This story line really suffers if one stops and asks," wait a minute, that doesn't make sense.." 

[Ed0517]

  I would tend to agree, but at the same time as far as the series goes at any rate, this circle has never been used for anything more dangerous than a Loop.  However while a Loop is real bad ass I don't remember it actually having power like a demi-god or an archangel..  So was Harry right about what he said about the circle?  Remains to be seen, or at least we haven't seen the evidence of it as of yet.

Yeah, the biggest BAs we have seen circled are Mab, Titania, and the Erlking.

Plus, we have to separate Word of Harry from Word of Jim. Harry may THINK it holds archangels. The WC also thought the Archive was on the level with the Fairy Ladies, and we have seen she is well above that. Harry can be just wrong. Isn't he the one who said Uriel could undo worlds... and Uriel upgrades to "Galaxies"? That's a few orders of magnitude....