So Fitz is...

[Ed0517]

Somehow he managed not to expose himself when he was a soldier in Viet Nam, or during basic

But also (and IMHO the more-likely explanation):  the MacFinn curse only affects 1 family member at a time.  If the circle was imported by dad/grandpa/etc, maybe one of those elder generations was at home -- inside the intact circle! -- while young Harley was in Basic; then they died, when he was in 'Nam (and he used the curse to take revenge on the Viet Cong).

Then -- being the CEO of a shipping conglomerate -- he was probably eligible to go home and take over the family business.

I like this explanation. Also explains why centuries later we are not overrun with loup garous. Not all MacFinns are active. Just the heir to the curse, like the heir to a throne.

[Ed0517]

Yeah, but "considered armed and dangerous" is often enough to get the suspect killed.

Oh yeah. They go in for suspected warlocks armed for bear. Like cops with an arrest warrant showing up with four of them with flak vests and shotguns and rifles. You want to take them in - but you are prepared to take them down.

But I think Kim could be cowed and go along with them.

Harry expected that the kind of summoning-circle she was proposing would be taken as proof of guilt, and she'd be executed for it.

might not be - so long as it had not been used.

[Mira]

But note, with Harry's nice silver circle, minor practitioner would have been able to cage Chauncey. So materials do count.

Yes, Harry says as much when he mentions that he upgraded his circle.  While yeah, possible that Finn brought his circle with him, what doesn't make any sense is him buying that Kim could fix it once it was broken.  Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole.  So was Kim in fact just a clever hustler with some magical ability? I'd say no, because supposedly she believed in the environmental cause that Finn championed.  I think one thing was true, she had no clue as to what that circle was built for.  She may have known Terra West and thought a Loop was just a male version of her, dangerous but not a monster.  If Harry had no clue as to what a Loop was until Bob explained it to him, Kim didn't know.  However her attitude had something in common with Molly's attitude, and I think if she had by some miracle pulled off that circle, she would be on her way to warlockhood.

[g33k]

... While yeah, possible that Finn brought his circle with him, what doesn't make any sense is him buying that Kim could fix it once it was broken.  Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole ...

How and where would MacFinn have learned such magic?  MacFinn was the victim of a curse, subject to someone else's magic.  MacFinn had no way to do magic.

He knew the circle needed to be intact... but he could check that with a simple inspection.  He could make an ordinary circle (like any other mortal could), but he had no  magical talent, he couldn't do a working, create a greater circle.  If there was magical construction to be done, energies used, then MacFinn was as helpless as any other mortal.

As an analogy:  plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c...  But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.

[Mira]

How and where would MacFinn have learned such magic?  MacFinn was the victim of a curse, subject to someone else's magic.  MacFinn had no way to do magic.

Sorry, wasn't clear, one can understand something, even how it works, but that doesn't mean one is able to fix it. If hemophilia ran in my family for generations, while I am not a hematologist, I'd educate myself to understand what it is, and whether or not there was a cure or a way to control it. That is just something you'd do if you knew it ran in your family, I doubt that the MacFinns were any different.   So for over the thousand years or so the MacFinn family has been cursed, I imagine they have looked into ways to lift the curse, then into ways to mitigate it as much as possible.  What did they learn? If they couldn't get the curse lifted, at least they could protect others and themselves from attack with the circle.  They might know what that circle looked like and the materials to make it.  However the MacFinns weren't wizards, as Harry tried to tell Kim, activating such a circle isn't as simple as your ordinary chalk circle, it takes knowledge and experience.

 In my opinion, since that circle was so vital to his protection and the protection of others, Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it.  So why was he messing with someone like Kim?  Yeah, she believed in his cause and wouldn't give him away, but I believe it would soon be obvious to him that she had no clue as to how to go about building his circle.  I don't think he was that stupid or naive to think she was qualified, I believe he was desperate.  I believe that Kim was as dishonest with him as she was with Harry.  She could have told him about Harry and that he could be trusted, she didn't, she believed she could handle it, if she survived, I think she would have eventually become a warlock.

As an analogy:  plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c...  But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.

Using your analogy, while your professional driver might not be able to repair their car, they understand how it works and enough about how that car is put together.  He'd know the difference between a mechanic qualified[/i ]to do the repairs on his high powered car, and a neighborhood guy who tinkers with his car on weekends doing simple repairs. So off the top Harry says that wizards don't talk about the kinds of things that circle contains. He also says wizards who build those kinds of circles are suspect because of what the circles are used for.  I bet that Finn knew that as well.  I bet from experience and family knowledge, because of the reasons already listed, it is almost impossible to find a qualified wizard to agree to build one in the first place.  So he may have assumed though he was in the phone book under "W" that Harry was a crackpot.  But why didn't he at least give him a shot instead of the unqualified Kim? Maybe he didn't bother to look in the phone book?

Never fully answered, was who knew what he was and who wrecked his circle? Or knew enough about magic to know what it did?  The same guys that brought us the belts?

[g33k]

...  So I think it is with Finn, over the thousand years or so that his family has been cursed, I imagine they have looked into ways to lift the curse, then ways to mitigate it as much as possible.  What did they learn? ... 

 In my opinion, since that circle was so vital to his protection and the protection of others, Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it ...

I think we may just have to agree to disagree, here.
   
   

First, I don't think this info is easy to acquire; not even for those with strong motivations.  Generally wizards don't advertise in the yellow pages.  Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble (in past ages) or to pursue their own methods for wealth-generation, e.g. on the stock market, or smuggling high-value small items via Ways, etc (specifics depending on individual wizards' particular strengths & proclivities).

Furthermore, the wizards who are inclined to do something "because it's the right thing to do" might just find it better to kill a loup garou than to help him hide.  I expect the average wizard of the White Council would call the Wardens to handle a loup garou!

Also:  I don't think the MacFinns have had the kind of lives that foster reliable multi-generational knowledge... likely they've been forced to flee (abandoning everything (including ancestral records!)) more than once.

... Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it.  So why was he messing with someone like Kim?  Yeah, she believed in his cause and wouldn't give him away, but I believe it would soon be obvious to him that she had no clue as to how to go about building his circle.
...
it is almost impossible to find a qualified wizard to build one in the first place.  So he may have assumed though he was in the phone book under "W" that Harry was a crackpot.  But why didn't he at least give him a shot instead of the unqualified Kim?

I don't expect MacFinn had the kind of knowledge capable of evaluating magicians.  How would you evaluate if one mechanic or another is a better choice to rebuild a transmission vs troubleshooting electrical glitches?  Or which neurosurgeon is best to deal with an aneurism vs. a tumor?  We don't know much about Kim's own strengths & specialties... maybe she was able to present some impressive-to-muggles feats of magic, which most wizards would recognize as fairly simple & low-powered.  She may even have impressed herself.

Why not call upon "W for Wizard" Harry?  Better an known ally like Kim -- with at least some magic -- than entrusting an utterly-unknown "crackpot" with such a critical secret!  (YMMV)

...  I believe that Kim was as dishonest with him as she was with Harry.  Had she survived, I think she would have eventually become a warlock.

You may be right; I don't think the novel is clear on this point.

My own reading is that the foundational "dishonesty" was Kim not being honest with herself:  she wasn't "lying" to Harry, she was preserving MacFinn's confidentiality (much as Harry would, for one of his clients).  Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again.  Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!

... Never fully answered, was who knew what he was and who wrecked his circle? Or knew enough about magic to know what it did?  The same guys that brought us the belts?

I thought Harry had concluded it was the Hexenwolves, looking for someone to cover their own tracks... or maybe that was WoJ?  Or even just a fantheory... 

Of course, Denton &Co are even less-likely to have the kind of magical theory to deduce the existence of MacFinn's circle, or to understand what it is/does; not even if they stumbled across it in a search!

The obvious conclusion then would be that yes, the same agency that gave them the belts, also gave them the info they needed to find/ruin MacFinn's circle.

We have a candidate or two... or more...

The "Black Council."

The Demigod of Discord.

Mab, grooming her future WinterKnight.

Some rando White Council wizard, looking to get Dresden killed.

Future!Harry, pulling strings that -- when he traveled back to see "who was pulling the strings?" -- nobody else was pulling, so he had to pull them himself, simply to avoid creating a timetravel paradox!  They say each of us is our own worst enemy...

[g33k]

One other point:  I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's:  IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.

[Ed0517]

  Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole.  So was Kim in fact just a clever hustler with some magical ability? I'd say no, because supposedly she believed in the environmental cause that Finn championed.  I think one thing was true, she had no clue as to what that circle was built for.  She may have known Terra West and thought a Loop was just a male version of her, dangerous but not a monster.  If Harry had no clue as to what a Loop was until Bob explained it to him, Kim didn't know. 

I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker. If he knew this much - he knows he needs a major talent to work on the circle. 

I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.

plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c...  But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.

  I think a lot of them, most of the pros, will know something more than oil change. Even if just "Something in fuel injection is messed. Maybe the nozzle? "

He'd have some idea, if not the skill needed to fix it. Much like, say, an athletic trainer "I think you damaged the ACL" - but he doesn't try to fix it !

  Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble

Um, the MacFinns ARE the wealthy nobles....

Furthermore, the wizards who are inclined to do something "because it's the right thing to do" might just find it better to kill a loup garou than to help him hide.  I expect the average wizard of the White Council would call the Wardens to handle a loup garou!

Maybe not. If you knew the curse is until the end of time.... and even killing Finn means the mantle (had to say it!) shifts... now you do not know where it is! Or what kind of nut it might infect! You help Finn because he is at least trying. Sort of like why a Marcone stays around - it's the devil you know and can predict. And if S*^#% goes down, you know who to look at.

Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again.  Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!!!!!

The obvious conclusion then would be that yes, the same agency that gave them the belts, also gave them the info they needed to find/ruin MacFinn's circle.

We have a candidate or two... or more...

The "Black Council."

I suspect the Black Council is another arm of the same agency.  This is sabotage before the BC and their armies move. Damage stuff and create unrest.

Mab, grooming her future WinterKnight.

No. Mab would not be creating such a threat to humans. Mab's a sniper, MacFinn is a grenade. Mab targets much more precisely.

Some rando White Council wizard, looking to get Dresden killed.

Too unfocused. Again, too wide a field of fire.

Future!Harry, pulling strings that -- when he traveled back to see "who was pulling the strings?" -- nobody else was pulling, so he had to pull them himself, simply to avoid creating a timetravel paradox! 

a little too contrived. I'd be disappointed in Jim. Next thing, we find out Harry is going to be fine, because he's just six all this time and Malcolm comes out of the shower at the Ozarks Holiday Inn Express on their way to Eb's farm.

One other point:  I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's:  IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.

Which supports the idea they are pretty responsible about holding down the damage and you would tend to want to help them, for the general welfare

[Mira]

I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker. If he knew this much - he knows he needs a major talent to work on the circle. 

My point, how is it he didn't see through Kim? 

I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.

Or at least a guy that knew of one.  Did Kim claim that?

Which supports the idea they are pretty responsible about holding down the damage and you would tend to want to help them, for the general welfare

Don't have much to add to most of your arguments, except about the chicken dinner reply.  While
yeah, most young people are arrogant and a bit know it all, Kim has a lot in common with Molly here.  It could also be why unless kids with talent are taken under the wing of a wizard they fall easy prey to the temptation of using their talent to do stuff that ought not be attempted except by professionals, or if the professionals don't do them, there is a reason why.  If they pull it off it leads them to think they can use it to more stuff, next thing you know you have a warlock on your hands.

One other point:  I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's:  IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.

There is no proof of that, but it really makes no difference because Finn's family would have understood for the past five hundred years what the circle is and what it does.. And yeah, something as vital as the circle has proven to be, they would have learned all they could about it.

First, I don't think this info is easy to acquire; not even for those with strong motivations.  Generally wizards don't advertise in the yellow pages.  Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble (in past ages) or to pursue their own methods for wealth-generation, e.g. on the stock market, or smuggling high-value small items via Ways, etc (specifics depending on individual wizards' particular strengths & proclivities).

True, only Harry does, but apparently some take it seriously, that's how 99% of his clients find out about him.  Here is another question, why didn't Finn simply ask Kim if she knew of any wizards in the area that might help him?

My own reading is that the foundational "dishonesty" was Kim not being honest with herself:  she wasn't "lying" to Harry, she was preserving MacFinn's confidentiality (much as Harry would, for one of his clients).  Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again.  Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!

Which makes no sense, because it was vital that that circle get remade.. It was clear because of it's nature Harry wasn't going to give her that information without a little more information from her.  He also flat out tells her she doesn't have the chops to pull it off even if he told her how to build it.  If she had simply come clean with him, chances are that Harry would have gone with her to look at the circle and help Finn.  She compares herself to Harry because he isn't that much older than her and doesn't take into account, experience, training, and talent level.  At that point confidentiality should have gone out the window, but Kim let her ego and perhaps her own ignorance get in the way.   

[g33k]

...  But I also think if Chauncy was a total liar, what would be the point of Harry calling him up for information ...

Don't make the mistake of trying to apply an "always X / never Y" binary logic.  Chauncy tells enough of the truth, enough of the time, to be known in the shadier parts of the wizarding world as a good source of info; he's not "a total liar" in the logic-puzzle sense of the Island of Liars & Truth-Tellers.

But he's Lucifer's front-man, his only real agenda is to get your soul for Hell... or just break out of a flawed circle & kill you (at a guess, dragging you to hell, so win-win for Chauncy!).

He'll hint at more-interesting / more-valuable info, try to lure you deeper into trusting him.  He presents as a "reasonable businessman & info-broker," who only tries to break the circle because "one must observe the formalities;" that whole identity, the aspect of "reasonable," is itself a deception; a "lie" if you will.

[g33k]

... I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them. 

I think Harry is pretty unusual in his money troubles.

In Proven Guilty, Harry explained one of Molly's options was to become wealthy from her magic.
From Ghost Story (where Molly was the Rag Lady, living on the streets & largely without financial resources) to Cold Days was no more than a year (likely much less), and she had done a total 180; a favor for the Svartalves got her a swank apartment, but she herself had filled it with top-grade goods.

Other paranet threads have explored wizard & White Council finances.  I'm pretty sure that (if they feel cash-strapped, and aren't as pig-headed as Dresden) most wizards can easily become wealthy if they have even the slightest desire to do so.

I doubt that money is much of a motivator for most wizards.

[Mira]

I doubt that money is much of a motivator for most wizards.

  I don't think that is what Ed is saying, it is more like Finn has to the funds to do a swift search.  Wonder if he checked with relatives?  You'd think over the years they'd produce a back up circle.

[Ed0517]

I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker.

My point, how is it he didn't see through Kim? 

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

He knows a little, and she knows more. The average guy in the street might not be able to tell the difference between, say, a 4th year college biology student and her professor. He just knows both know a lot more than him. 

Don't have much to add to most of your arguments, except about the chicken dinner reply.  While
yeah, most young people are arrogant and a bit know it all, Kim has a lot in common with Molly here.  It could also be why unless kids with talent are taken under the wing of a wizard they fall easy prey to the temptation of using their talent to do stuff that ought not be attempted except by professionals, or if the professionals don't do them, there is a reason why.  If they pull it off it leads them to think they can use it to more stuff, next thing you know you have a warlock on your hands.

I meant that arrogance is very common among wizards, and you had a very good point you made quite clearly.

You watch the kids not because of greater arrogance but because of greater damage potential if they go wrong. Like why you are not as afraid of the cocker spaniel that you know bit a kid as you are of the Rottweiler who has never bit anyone.

why didn't Finn simply ask Kim if she knew of any wizards in the area that might help him?

He was convinced she knew what she was doing. She thought she did. She didn't.
 

She compares herself to Harry because he isn't that much older than her and doesn't take into account, experience, training, and talent level.  At that point confidentiality should have gone out the window, but Kim let her ego and perhaps her own ignorance get in the way.

Yes. Rather than look for the money to do this, take a finder's fee and bring in Harry. 

[Ed0517]

I think Harry is pretty unusual in his money troubles.

In Proven Guilty, Harry explained one of Molly's options was to become wealthy from her magic.
From Ghost Story (where Molly was the Rag Lady, living on the streets & largely without financial resources) to Cold Days was no more than a year (likely much less), and she had done a total 180; a favor for the Svartalves got her a swank apartment, but she herself had filled it with top-grade goods.

Other paranet threads have explored wizard & White Council finances.  I'm pretty sure that (if they feel cash-strapped, and aren't as pig-headed as Dresden) most wizards can easily become wealthy if they have even the slightest desire to do so.

I doubt that money is much of a motivator for most wizards.

Molly got it big from the svartalves. They may be paying a stipend as well, not just giving her the apartment - but if you suddenly did not have to pay rent/mortgage/ property taxes... couldn't you upgrade YOUR gear?  She found a rich patron fast.

We do not know how rich the other wizards are - we haven't seen them. I never got the impression Justin lived it up. Eb doesn't, but that could be him. Possibly Molly's talents could get her rich. Heck, how good a PI tail could she be with her veils? Industrial espionage? Her talents may be marketable. What does Harry do with his? He breaks things. Hardly low key, either.

and I think $10,000 a year to be on call is a nice fee when you rarely even get called.

[Mira]

He knows a little, and she knows more. The average guy in the street might not be able to tell the difference between, say, a 4th year college biology student and her professor. He just knows both know a lot more than him. 

 Finn is no bumbling fool, and his "little problem" isn't something he knows little about, his life and others depends upon it... He'd know as much as possible about it. Kim knows nothing, she just thinks she does,that's the problem.

He was convinced she knew what she was doing. She thought she did. She didn't.

Then he was either a total ignorant fool easily duped, or desperate. 

Yes. Rather than look for the money to do this, take a finder's fee and bring in Harry. 

Except it never was about money with her, that wasn't what she was after.  Notice, her first move is to try and bribe Harry with a steak dinner..