Justin DuMorne

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Two barrels HWWB AND Lea. I would posit Lea (She Who Likes To Walk Hounds) is more powerful than a single Walker and more than capable in aiding Harry in turning a Walker back upon Justin.

Justin in the main Dresdenverse is the proverbial dead parrot. He probably was working for Nameless, and was tasked with recovering Bob following Kemmlers defeat and later collecting Wizard Starborn  and to try and turn them to The Circle/Black Council, but Nameless was aware of this failure hence it is likely Nameless who Maeve is referring to. By this point three of his schemes had already been thwarted by Harry if indeed as I posit Cowl is Nameless

[Ed0517]

Two barrels HWWB AND Lea. I would posit Lea (She Who Likes To Walk Hounds) is more powerful than a single Walker and more than capable in aiding Harry in turning a Walker back upon Justin.

Justin in the main Dresdenverse is the proverbial dead parrot. He probably was working for Nameless, and was tasked with recovering Bob following Kemmlers defeat and later collecting Wizard Starborn  and to try and turn them to The Circle/Black Council, but Nameless was aware of this failure hence it is likely Nameless who Maeve is referring to. By this point three of his schemes had already been thwarted by Harry if indeed as I posit Cowl is Nameless

Even if Lea is as powerful as a Walker, which I doubt, I think HWWB was described as a prince among them. I thought his power level was more towards angel level.

[Mira]

Even if Lea is as powerful as a Walker, which I doubt, I think HWWB was described as a prince among them. I thought his power level was more towards angel level.

  I believe Lash told Harry that he was a great knight among the Outsiders.

[g33k]

... I would posit Lea (She Who Likes To Walk Hounds) is more powerful than a single Walker ...

WoJ puts Walkers on the same general power-tier as the Mothers, and Angels.
So, no -- Lea is far below their power.

The only saving grace is that they seem to be limited in how much of that power they can bring to bear within Creation -- it seems to be only a minute fraction of their total power.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

In which case Lea still overpowers any individual Walker in creation, and the point is that she helped re-direct the Walker back upon Justin, rather than confront the Walker directly.

I presume that if the Starborn loses, the Walkers get to manifest their full power in creation immediately contaminating all universes within the Multiverse, which is why losing in a single universe damns all of creation.

No pressure on Harry then.

[g33k]

In which case Lea still overpowers any individual Walker in creation ...

I seriously doubt it.
Remember, Michael rescued a bunch of WC wizards from Outsider attack... including a cadre of Wardens led by the Blackstaff.  I expect a Blackstaff-led group of WC wizards would be "about on par" with Lea; but Eb said that they'd all have died if Michael hadn't been there.

It's a couple of levels of A:B:C comparison (so we don't have a 1:1 Lea:Walker comparo) but I think there's no real sign that Lea is capable of taking down a Walker.

... and the point is that she helped re-direct the Walker back upon Justin, rather than confront the Walker directly.

Helping a Starborn, now... that's another story!  That's just working with a Mortal, that's everyday faerie biz... Plus, she was fulfilling the "taerie godmother (protection)" contract.

It isn't Lea's fault that her charge was a Starborn, with an outsized ability to hurt Outsiders.  (such clauses seem to delight the fae)

 

[Mira]

Helping a Starborn, now... that's another story!  That's just working with a Mortal, that's everyday faerie biz... Plus, she was fulfilling the "taerie godmother (protection)" contract.

It isn't Lea's fault that her charge was a Starborn, with an outsized ability to hurt Outsiders.  (such clauses seem to delight the fae)

  No, not her fault, I wonder if she volunteered to be Harry's godmother or did Mab order it as part of the bargain with Margaret to give birth to a star child in the first place?

My theory is the White Council wanted Margaret to give birth to one, but because of her relationship with them and opinion of them, she didn't.. But when she changed her mind to have one, she went to Mab to get protection for the kid, thus the bargain.  A bargain which gave the baby protection, but also guaranteed when it was all grown up that Mab would have a star child as a Winter Knight.. I don't think Harry ever really had a choice, he was maneuvered into thinking he had one, but in reality at some point Mab would have informed him of the bargain his mother made. 

[g33k]

  No, not her fault, I wonder if she volunteered to be Harry's godmother or did Mab order it as part of the bargain with Margaret to give birth to a star child in the first place?

My theory is the White Council wanted Margaret to give birth to one, but because of her relationship with them and opinion of them, she didn't.. But when she changed her mind to have one, she went to Mab to get protection for the kid, thus the bargain.  A bargain which gave the baby protection, but also guaranteed when it was all grown up that Mab would have a star child as a Winter Knight.. I don't think Harry ever really had a choice, he was maneuvered into thinking he had one, but in reality at some point Mab would have informed him of the bargain his mother made.

My own WAG is that the WCouncil was too afraid of the "Starborn as Destroyer" (albeit some individual WCouncil members may have demurred, and taken independent action); but the BCouncil thought that (Starborn/Destroyer, either way) it sounded like exactly their kind of "shortcut to power," so they wanted it.

I think Margaret was onboard at first.   I think she backed out of the Raith relationship when she realized how Papa treated his sons (i.e. killing them), but I don't know why she turned away from the larger "BCouncil" plan ... maybe she figured the Whamps had too much influence, and she couldn't have a child under BCouncil auspices that could be free of Raith's "kill all sons" schtick?

I'm pretty sure Mab was ALL about getting herself a Starborn WK, absolutely loved the idea!  I suspect she was instrumental in "getting Margaret to see the error of her ways" (with respect to Raith, and the BCouncil) and instructed Lea to put herself in LeFay's path often enough (but not in a substantially adversarial way) that when she was on the run, pregnant, and knowing Raith would launch an Entropy Curse as soon as he could)...

Margaret LeFay absolutely grabbed at the chance to make a "Faerie Godmother" bargain with Lea!

I entertain the notion -- as a WAG within a WAG -- that Mab actually planted the idea of a Starbabe, so that she could harvest herself a SB WK when the child was ripe.

And no, I do not think that kind of long-range planning -- and manipulation of mortals -- is beyond Mab's ability.

[morriswalters]

Couple of points.  Margaret was at least partially enthralled by Raith per Thomas in Blood Rites.

"God knows," Thomas said. "All I know is that there was some sort of business between them. It developed into something else. Father was trying to snare her permanently, but she wound up being too strong for him to completely enthrall.

She bore part of the responsibility for what was done to Harry.

"I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone.

In Changes Butcher set's up a Chekhov's gun, the meeting attended by Eb and Papa Raith where Margaret tries to sell her plan.

[Mira]

Couple of points.  Margaret was at least partially enthralled by Raith per Thomas in Blood Rites.

  It looks that way, but then again what did Thomas mean by "business?"  If he meant enthralled, why didn't he just say it? Or was Jim being vague so he can define it later?  The "business" could have been that Margaret had considered giving Raith a star child?  To give the Council the finger perhaps? 

Here is another thought, supposedly a star child is reasonably rare, though the way they have been turning up in Jim's stories of late, I don't think they are that rare, and maybe dare I say it, all that special... Well, let's leave that for the moment..

What if it isn't the child that is so rare or special, but the woman who can conceive one?  Perhaps Margaret was going for the highest bidder? But then she met Malcolm..

[morriswalters]

Margaret was only partially enthralled, that's in the quote. Somebody figured out how to make a Starborn, maybe Maggie. For some purpose unexplained. They hold a meeting with the Red Court, the White Court, the White Council and Maggie, maybe representing the Black Council. She shops the idea to the attendees.  Eb doesn't like it but he does his job and takes the proposal the the Senior Council, they bite.  Somewhere in the mix Maggie gets cold feet. Possibly because Raith has decided she can be the baby machine they need. Maybe he pushed to hard, who knows. She bolts an goes into the Never Never.

[Mira]

Margaret was only partially enthralled, that's in the quote. Somebody figured out how to make a Starborn, maybe Maggie. For some purpose unexplained. They hold a meeting with the Red Court, the White Court, the White Council and Maggie, maybe representing the Black Council. She shops the idea to the attendees.  Eb doesn't like it but he does his job and takes the proposal the the Senior Council, they bite.  Somewhere in the mix Maggie gets cold feet. Possibly because Raith has decided she can be the baby machine they need. Maybe he pushed to hard, who knows. She bolts an goes into the Never Never.

But is what Thomas says reliable?  When Margaret left Lord Raith for Malcolm, Thomas was a six or seven year old child.  Now vamp children maybe different than full vanilla humans, but how much did little Thomas understand what was going on, and how much was he told was going on.  Lara might have told him, but can what she said be trusted?

[morriswalters]

In the story Thomas tells you what he's learned and how, how much is reliable is a question with no answer within the text. I'll take Thomas at his word until Butcher decides to make him unreliable as a source.

[Mira]

In the story Thomas tells you what he's learned and how, how much is reliable is a question with no answer within the text. I'll take Thomas at his word until Butcher decides to make him unreliable as a source.

That's why I think it is unreliable.  Thomas was a small child, so his understanding of what he remembers is unreliable.  Lord Raith isn't going to admit that he wasn't able to enthrall Margaret completely or at all.  Lara who might know and would tell Thomas has her own agenda so I wouldn't fully trust what she said either.  I do believe at some point this will all be revisited and hopefully Jim will have made up his mind by then as to how he wants that to resolve itself.

[Ed0517]

In which case Lea still overpowers any individual Walker in creation,

I don't think so. Uriel can destroy galaxies. reduce that for his foot troops, an angel is at least planetary level. In Battle Ground, it was assumed even Ethniu would not play at Michael's with angels hanging around. And Ethniu is well above Mab, who is well above Lea. Even if Lea can beat the average Outsider, she is likely at a disadvantage against a Walker, and easily overmatched by HWWB or their other elites.