Why EVERYONE is ok with a wardenless demonreach

[Tinfoil hat]

WHY EVERYONE IS OK WITH DEMONREACH NOT HAVING A WARDEN
So when last did Demonreach last have a warden before harry got the job. The books imply at least 5 years. I have seen so say 15 years or more. Which is crazy, cause Demonreach is scary and powerful. All the major players seem to know about it. Yet none seem to be willing to attempt a power grap and take it for themselves in the years without a  warden. Mab in Changes claims Demonreach could have defended itself from the ladies and co. And BG implies that the Warden is a weakness thst can be used to get in the island being able to defend itself. NEMESIS’S plan
Stop theory time
What if in the early days the council always made sure their was a warden. But most candidates died trying to bound with it. Thosewere the lucky ones. Those who succeed ended up getting unstable. This could explain why no one rushes to fill the spot its more troble than its worth.

[Regenbogen]

Yes, but what I don't understand is:
Why let it without Warden? So any villain could grab it and try to become Warden themselves? Wouldn't it be better to make sure there is a Warden you can trust, instead of waiting for someone to just stumble upon the job?

What other Wardens did we know except Harry and Kemmler? OK, could be the job makes them crazy. Or only the crazy can get the job in the first place.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

My theory is that it had a Warden, he was an absentee Warden until he was murdered by the Captain of the Wardens under the influence.

The White Council obviously thought they could mothball Demonreach, it had been decades since it was last used, I mean it’s not as if a Titan was going to appear out of thin air was it.

Their solution? have one of their number anonymously become warden who had no ambitions in relation to Demonreach to prevent any old Tom, Dick or Harry becoming warden and releasing the Boogens under their control. Obviously this was wheedled out of the Senior Council themselves partially under the influence.

Of course if it was found out WHO was the warden, someone seeking control of Demonreach could murder them and then rush to Demonreach and pick up the reigns, I mean it would be extraordinary bad luck for someone to bind the island before they could safely get to the island themselves, wouldn’t it.

[morriswalters]

WHY EVERYONE IS OK WITH DEMONREACH NOT HAVING A WARDEN
So when last did Demonreach last have a warden before harry got the job. The books imply at least 5 years. I have seen so say 15 years or more. Which is crazy, cause Demonreach is scary and powerful. All the major players seem to know about it. Yet none seem to be willing to attempt a power grap and take it for themselves in the years without a  warden. Mab in Changes claims Demonreach could have defended itself from the ladies and co. And BG implies that the Warden is a weakness thst can be used to get in the island being able to defend itself. NEMESIS’S plan
Stop theory time
What if in the early days the council always made sure their was a warden. But most candidates died trying to bound with it. Thosewere the lucky ones. Those who succeed ended up getting unstable. This could explain why no one rushes to fill the spot its more troble than its worth.

The Doylist answer is that Butcher didn't finalize the idea until he foreshadows it in Small Favor and that he still  doesn't have a handle on it.

The Watsonian answer is that it didn't really need one, because there could be at least one in a cell on Demonreach, just in case. Butcher keeps hinting that Alfred is hiding something. 

Think of it this way.  You create a doomsday weapon and place it in a missile silo in the Midwest.  Then you rely on  random chance to  fill the position of civilization ender. Even the people who dreamed up the strategic missile forces aren't that silly(and they were pretty silly).

[Tinfoil hat]

Yes, but what I don't understand is:
Why let it without Warden? So any villain could grab it and try to become Warden themselves? Wouldn't it be better to make sure there is a Warden you can trust, instead of waiting for someone to just stumble upon the job?

What other Wardens did we know except Harry and Kemmler? OK, could be the job makes them crazy. Or only the crazy can get the job in the first place.

Only the crazy get the job would be scary
But in line with the Dresden files universe
Part of me thinks tha lasciel was a test meant to prepare harry for the role. If u can tame a fallen demonreach wont corrupt u

[g33k]

Only the crazy get the job would be scary
But in line with the Dresden files universe
Part of me thinks tha lasciel was a test meant to prepare harry for the role. If u can tame a fallen demonreach wont corrupt u

Two points, here...

1.  A Fallen Angel's shadow, playing a "long game" of studying their target & customizing temptations to them, is very different from the continuous psychic pressure of the Island itself and its protector, and the temptation to explore / utilize the power represented by the entities trapped there.  I don't think the one prepares you for the other.

2.  At the same time, I think Harry's whole life has been micromanaged by supernatural forces (particularly Mab, whom I WAG to have been "social-engineering" herself a Starborn/Wizard/WinterKnight since before Harry was born!) to (A) harden the will of the Starborn & (B) power-up the Starborn for the coming apocalypse; beginning with orphaning Harry, apprenticing him to Justin (shield-training via baseballs, &c), isolating from the White Council (who should have been his "in-group," the people who'd rally-round at need, have his back), and so on.  In this context, yes the Coin was part of that process... just not specific to the Island or to being Warden (that too is just another Power-up strewn in his path, to give a wizard BAT-caliber power (centuries before a wizard would normally hit the apex of his power)).

[Mira]

Two points, here...

1.  A Fallen Angel's shadow, playing a "long game" of studying their target & customizing temptations to them, is very different from the continuous psychic pressure of the Island itself and its protector, and the temptation to explore / utilize the power represented by the entities trapped there.  I don't think the one prepares you for the other.

2.  At the same time, I think Harry's whole life has been micromanaged by supernatural forces (particularly Mab, whom I WAG to have been "social-engineering" herself a Starborn/Wizard/WinterKnight since before Harry was born!) to (A) harden the will of the Starborn & (B) power-up the Starborn for the coming apocalypse; beginning with orphaning Harry, apprenticing him to Justin (shield-training via baseballs, &c), isolating from the White Council (who should have been his "in-group," the people who'd rally-round at need, have his back), and so on.  In this context, yes the Coin was part of that process... just not specific to the Island or to being Warden (that too is just another Power-up strewn in his path, to give a wizard BAT-caliber power (centuries before a wizard would normally hit the apex of his power)).

I agree and have said for a long time that Harry's life has been micromanaged by outside forces. If that is what destiny is, well then Harry has been a man of destiny from the moment he was conceived.

As to why the island went Wardenless, and I disagree, it did need a Warden, who knows?  It fact that it needed a Warden is born out by the defense systems that needed a Warden to be fully implemented, as Harry did the year he spent on the island before Skin Game.  In fact, I'd say it lucked out basically, though I think Alfred would have put up a pretty good fight, but it was vulnerable, I'd like to see Denarians camp out on it's shores now.

[Ed0517]

Why was the WC with it being Wardenless? Because the paranoids at the Senior Council were afraid a warden might USE one or more of the prisoners. Still likely ARE. If Harry breaks - what stops him from going to Edinburgh with his new puppet Ethnui at his side? Think she can crack their wards? and she supposedly is not the biggest baddest one... recall, Naagloshi are in minimum security - what is in Supermax?

[g33k]

Why was the WC with it being Wardenless? Because the paranoids at the Senior Council were afraid a warden might USE one or more of the prisoners.

This, I think.

Being the Warden simultaneously :

• gives that person access to an incredible amount of power
• puts them under a constant psychic strain
• makes them a target for those looking to use the power (n.b. that includes indirect pressure, manipulation, blackmail, bribery, seduction, deception, etc)
• makes them a target for anyone looking to jailbreak one or more prisoners

Who does the (paranoid) White Council choose as the person to wield all that power, wear that bullseye?  Caught between paranoias -- not willing to trust anyone who's willing to actually step up to say "I'll do it!" but also few/none willing to accept the role if asked, for fear they're being nominated to die...

We've also already seen how far they can stick their heads in the sand, denying reality:  they don't want to face the fact that a Warden is actually necessary (and with the coming Apocalypse, critically necessary).
 
So the paranoia keeps them from screwing their courage to the sticking-point, and the OPD (Ostrich Personality Disorder) convinces them it's probably OK, for now...

[Tinfoil hat]

This, I think.

Being the Warden simultaneously :

• gives that person access to an incredible amount of power
• puts them under a constant psychic strain
• makes them a target for those looking to use the power (n.b. that includes indirect pressure, manipulation, blackmail, bribery, seduction, deception, etc)
• makes them a target for anyone looking to jailbreak one or more prisoners

Who does the (paranoid) White Council choose as the person to wield all that power, wear that bullseye?  Caught between paranoias -- not willing to trust anyone who's willing to actually step up to say "I'll do it!" but also few/none willing to accept the role if asked, for fear they're being nominated to die...

We've also already seen how far they can stick their heads in the sand, denying reality:  they don't want to face the fact that a Warden is actually necessary (and with the coming Apocalypse, critically necessary).
 
So the paranoia keeps them from screwing their courage to the sticking-point, and the OPD (Ostrich Personality Disorder) convinces them it's probably OK, for now...

I always think that part of the problem is that jim nevers rights a short will the SC members as narrators. There is a word of jim that the Merlins plan for ending the war was pointing harry at them. This woj implies a lot. What if the SC is so relaxed because it knows that Mab, and Odin was on the job. BG tells us that Odi  spents to much time in Chicago due to him having plans for how to defend Chicago

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Actually the Warden isn’t under psychic strain unless he interviews the inmates. It’s everybody else who is.

I am waiting for Harry to put Ronald McDonald into Demonreach.

You know he must exist in the Dresdenverse as a thing from the NeverNever, his desmesne being McDonaldland, along with Mickey Mouse, the Michelin Man and every other corporate Mascot. I really want to see Toot and Lacuna take on Snap, Crackle and Pop ““No added Sugar!” Screamed Lacuna as she beat the mascots head into a shapeless bloody pulp with a comically large spoon.””

Just because all the traditional monsters are in Demonreach doesn’t mean that there might not be new monsters who deserve to be there. The White Council mothballing Demonreach is very shortsighted at best, horrifying at worst.

[g33k]

...
I am waiting for Harry to put Ronald McDonald into Demonreach.

You know he must exist in the Dresdenverse as a thing from the NeverNever ...

Pennywise is Ronny McD's side-hustle.

[LordDresden2]

WHY EVERYONE IS OK WITH DEMONREACH NOT HAVING A WARDEN
So when last did Demonreach last have a warden before harry got the job. The books imply at least 5 years. I have seen so say 15 years or more. Which is crazy, cause Demonreach is scary and powerful. All the major players seem to know about it. Yet none seem to be willing to attempt a power grap and take it for themselves in the years without a  warden. Mab in Changes claims Demonreach could have defended itself from the ladies and co. And BG implies that the Warden is a weakness thst can be used to get in the island being able to defend itself. NEMESIS’S plan
Stop theory time
What if in the early days the council always made sure their was a warden. But most candidates died trying to bound with it. Thosewere the lucky ones. Those who succeed ended up getting unstable. This could explain why no one rushes to fill the spot its more troble than its worth.

We don't know for sure, but personally I suspect it has more to do with Council politics.

Probably it has a Warden...most of the time.  But when one dies or retires (if you can), then the SC probably has to appoint a new one.  The sheer power and danger associated with the position means that they are probably going to be very careful about who they give it to, and it might be that the candidate has to be acceptable to Alfred as well.

So the appointment is probably very, very political.  It would likely  (I suspect) need to be someone the whole SC, or a large majority of them, can agree on.  Which might also mean that it needs to be someone that isn't a close ally of any one Senior Councillor and an enemy of another.  If Alfred has a veto that further narrows the list of possible candidates.

Also, the Council is made up of people with multi-century lifespans and the SC is mostly people who have been around for hundreds of years.  They take the long view, for good or bad (or for good and bad).  Most of the time, so what if the island goes a few years without a Warden?

If things are calm, no major threats visible on the horizon, it might not seem like a big deal to the SC if the position is empty for five or ten or twenty years, while they figure out who to appoint.  It might matter if something Nasty suddenly brews up, but that's the exception, and 300+ year olds know it.  Most of the time they'd be right not to sweat it.

A twenty-year gap to a SC member is approximately the same as an eight month interim would seem to a typical mundane human (assuming 400 year Wizard spans and 75 year typical mundane spans).

Anyway, that's my guess.

[Tinfoil hat]

We don't know for sure, but personally I suspect it has more to do with Council politics.

Probably it has a Warden...most of the time.  But when one dies or retires (if you can), then the SC probably has to appoint a new one.  The sheer power and danger associated with the position means that they are probably going to be very careful about who they give it to, and it might be that the candidate has to be acceptable to Alfred as well.

So the appointment is probably very, very political.  It would likely  (I suspect) need to be someone the whole SC, or a large majority of them, can agree on.  Which might also mean that it needs to be someone that isn't a close ally of any one Senior Councillor and an enemy of another.  If Alfred has a veto that further narrows the list of possible candidates.

Also, the Council is made up of people with multi-century lifespans and the SC is mostly people who have been around for hundreds of years.  They take the long view, for good or bad (or for good and bad).  Most of the time, so what if the island goes a few years without a Warden?

If things are calm, no major threats visible on the horizon, it might not seem like a big deal to the SC if the position is empty for five or ten or twenty years, while they figure out who to appoint.  It might matter if something Nasty suddenly brews up, but that's the exception, and 300+ year olds know it.  Most of the time they'd be right not to sweat it.

A twenty-year gap to a SC member is approximately the same as an eight month interim would seem to a typical mundane human (assuming 400 year Wizard spans and 75 year typical mundane spans).

Anyway, that's my guess.

That might work. A year seems like a life time to a teenager but to a 60 year old its not that long.
Your idea might solve the issue. After all according to Eb BG while big wasnt EVERYONE fighting.  In his life time maybe every 120 years an incident might occur that requires the island. So who cares if the island is warden less for a few years. That might also explain things like Mab being ok with a  lady and knight ( maeve and  the other guy forgot his name). A competent lady and knight weren't needed then. As soon as theyare needed she fires them

[BrainFireBob]

Two points.

1) I suspect LaFortier was Warden.
2) I also suspect Harry didn't do the Warden ritual, but the the Sanctum ritual- and there will be weirdness