Maggie white council spy

[Ed0517]

Maggie's mother died in 1810 per the official timeline. Which makes her about 160 when Harry is born.

Do we know Maggie's birth in relation to her mother's death? She could have been older.

[morriswalters]

The series timeline says,

BTW APPROX 1797 AND 1810: Maggie LeFay is born. (Source)

.  You would have to do a very deep dive in the Words Of Jim to get to that  number.

[LordDresden2]

Butcher is heavily retconning events so this is offered without warranty.

I agree.  I first became sure that there was significant retconning going on during the exchange between Harry and Stacy back in, IIRC, Small Favor.  I consider it fairly sure retconning because of Harry's reaction.  Luccio was talking to Harry about his mother, and what she was telling him was totally at variance with what he had heard from Eb, from Thomas, from Nicodemus, from Chaunzoggoroth, etc.  It doesn't even match what her own simulacrum said to him in the story where he learns Thomas is his brother.

Now Stacy could have been lying, or trying to spare Harry's feelings if she didn't know what he already knew, but Harry ought to have reacted internally to this strange discrepancy.  Instead, he takes it in stride as if it was natural.  That tells me that JB was retconning Margaret LeFay's backstory.

Was Margaret playing a double or triple game, for someone?  Possibly.  It's also possible that she started out with misguided idealism and got in over her head, and became corrupted.  That would fit with her 'shadow's comments that "I was so arrogant".

As for contact with Eb...Margaret may well have run from Eb, out of fear or shame or both, but that doesn't mean Eb couldn't have tracked her down.  Likewise, he may have 'had his orders' regarding her, but that doesn't mean he obeyed them.  It might be that Eb contacted her in spite of her running, or at least monitored her and Malcolm from a distance.  We just don't know.

But yeah, the retcon tangles up all the speculations.

[Mira]

I agree.  I first became sure that there was significant retconning going on during the exchange between Harry and Stacy back in, IIRC, Small Favor.  I consider it fairly sure retconning because of Harry's reaction.  Luccio was talking to Harry about his mother, and what she was telling him was totally at variance with what he had heard from Eb, from Thomas, from Nicodemus, from Chaunzoggoroth, etc.  It doesn't even match what her own simulacrum said to him in the story where he learns Thomas is his brother.

Now Stacy could have been lying, or trying to spare Harry's feelings if she didn't know what he already knew, but Harry ought to have reacted internally to this strange discrepancy.  Instead, he takes it in stride as if it was natural.  That tells me that JB was retconning Margaret LeFay's backstory.

Was Margaret playing a double or triple game, for someone?  Possibly.  It's also possible that she started out with misguided idealism and got in over her head, and became corrupted.  That would fit with her 'shadow's comments that "I was so arrogant".

As for contact with Eb...Margaret may well have run from Eb, out of fear or shame or both, but that doesn't mean Eb couldn't have tracked her down.  Likewise, he may have 'had his orders' regarding her, but that doesn't mean he obeyed them.  It might be that Eb contacted her in spite of her running, or at least monitored her and Malcolm from a distance.  We just don't know.

But yeah, the retcon tangles up all the speculations.

Some of it may come down to the point of view of who is telling Harry the story about his mother..

[g33k]

Some of it may come down to the point of view of who is telling Harry the story about his mother..

"Some" of it??!?

Most of it, I'd think!

Everyone's an unreliable narrator.

Each character will speak from their own perspective; and often, will say different things (or just "spin" things differently) depending on who they're speaking to.

[Mira]

"Some" of it??!?

Most of it, I'd think!

Everyone's an unreliable narrator.

Each character will speak from their own perspective; and often, will say different things (or just "spin" things differently) depending on who they're speaking to.

Thank you, that is what I was thinking, but wanted to hear you say it.  However I disagree with the unreliable narrator part.  Why?  Because each one telling Harry what they knew of his mother came from his,her, or it's point of view, or the truth as far as they knew.. Unless of course they had a motive to lie to Harry.  What Luccio said about her can be relied on from her and Council's view point, and can be relied on as their opinion..

[g33k]

...  What Luccio said about her can be relied on from her and Council's view point, and can be relied on as their opinion ...

Not necessarily; Peabody was already tweaking Luccio's perspective, and she may have been trying to treat Harry extra-gently.

By proclivity, I think she's very practical and no-nonsense, but as a lover she might have been reluctant to "make him face facts" about just how bad his mother was (from her own POV).  I mean, attacking somebody's mother is pretty multiculturally a "now you've gon too far" element (unless your father smelt of elderberries).

It'd be interesting to see another conversation now that she's entirely free-willed, and not trying to kid-glove Harry...

[LordDresden2]

"Some" of it??!?

Most of it, I'd think!

Everyone's an unreliable narrator.

Each character will speak from their own perspective; and often, will say different things (or just "spin" things differently) depending on who they're speaking to.

The problem with that is that Harry's early knowledge of his mother came from multiple different independent sources:  Chaunzoggoroth, Martha Liberty, Ebenezar, Thomas, Nicodemus, her own simulacrum, Lea, etc.

The thing is, their accounts all more or less tallied (with a slight exception in Martha Liberty's case).  They all gave Harry a version that more or less lined up.  There was a single hint in Martha's reaction that Margaret may not have been all bad to start with, but everything else lined up with the description of Margaret LeFay as a major-league warlock, troublemaker, killer, bad news on a plate.

Then, suddenly, around the time of Small Favor, things changed...and Harry didn't seem to notice.  Which suggests to me strongly that JB is retconning.